Discussion:
95 Theses for Atheist Reform: #89 How Atheists misrepresent their (tiny) role in Science Re: Richard Dawkins - The Genius of Charles "I am not an atheist" Darwin
(too old to reply)
Morton Lucifer
2009-08-09 03:14:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT), Budikka666
I finally got a chance to watch the first two parts of this series and
it's excellent. Dawkins does a terrific job.
At being a TV presenter with an atheist agenda, the brilliance was
Darwin's and he WAS NOT an Atheist!!!! B^p

From the way atheists carry on you would think that Atheists led
the evolution and science charge and religion opposed it. B^D

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Religion has led the scientific progress in civilization, just as it has
inspired the artistic, architectural, mathematical and musical output,
and atheism has played NO SIGNIFICANT ROLE!

Two of the most significant modern scientific developments serve to
illustrate this;

The Theory of Evolution was propounded by Charles Darwin, who not only
explicitly stated that he was NOT an atheist, but was a churchgoer! B^D

The other major scientific theory which blows Creationist fundies out of
the water is the Big Bang Theory. Again atheists had nothing to do with
the science, it is the work of Lemaitre, a Belgian Roman Catholic
priest, honorary prelate, professor of physics and astronomer at the
Catholic University of Leuven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

So, why is it that everytime atheists discuss science, they present
it as battle between Atheist scientists and Religious Creation
'Science'(sic) when the VAST MAJORITY of religious support and teach
Evolion, and religious have played a far greater role in CREATING
science than Atheists, who have never inspired a great or enduring
civilisation, which religious has done all through history.

We live in what the historians designated as Judeao-Christian
Civilisation, and which is more accurately seen as
Judeao-Christian-Islamic civilisation, and yet if you listen to
Atheists, who refuse to acknowledge the contributions of religion,
and NEVER provide an accurate or balanced view, you can only conclude
that they are either completely ignorant of History, or else they are
deliberately distorting it, as they do the respective roles of
atheistm and religion in Science. [See below for a summary of
contributions by individual believers, the major scientists in history,
responsible for the most significant discoveries! And this does not
include the greatest contribution of religion; inspiring and sustaining
the progressive CIVILISATIONS, in which these advances could take place,
Contrast that with 100% of Atheist states being tyrannies and a
balanced Ledger is obtained! B^]
He holds back no punches when addressing the conflicting, evidence-
free stories told by the creationists with the fact of evolution.
So the atheists interest in Evolution is not the science, but it's use
to promote their cause by their endless beating up on Creationism,
not the mainstream religious position, but the only one the atheists
feel able to tackle, because it's fundamentalism is as simplistic
as their own!

Religion DOES NOT EQUAL CREATIONISM.

Dawkins and the deceitful atheist movement he represents select
Creationism as an easy target (theists such as Shelby-Spong have already
done the demolition work on Creationism, decades ago. Dawkins merely
plagiarises his work, and pretends that ALL religious are defeated
if Creationism is! pfffft! )

How many times have atheist hypocrites claimed, falsely, that I am
claiming that ALL atheists are guilty of the crimes of the atheist
tyrannies. Once more for the record, the atheist regimes are
responsible for the terror torture and death of over 60,000,000
victims, not every modern atheist.

But MODERN atheists ARE GUILTY of

1. Hypocrisy, because it is THEY who use the illegitimate concept
of Collective Guilt and Collective Punishment. They continually
hold 'RELIGION' and ALL religious, to be responsible for the acts
of a tiny minority of religious.

2. Holocaust denial - pretending that the 60,000,000 dead in the USSR,
Maoist China, and Pol Pots Year Zero was not the work of ATHEIST
REGIMES.

The difference then between my historical criticism of atheist tyranny
and Atheist condemnation of religion based on selecting a few
unrepresentative incidents and holding all religions collectively
responsible for them is that I am discriminating, blaming only the
Specific atheist regimes for their crimes, while atheists are
indiscriminate: If 16 terrorists attack the WTC they simply blame
'theists' .. it is a vile practice of COLLECTIVE BLAME.

It is made worse, more hypocritical because EVERY atheist regime has
been a totalitarian tyranny, making it the NORM for atheist societies,
but every civilisation has been based on Spiritual Teachings, and only
most modern religious societies are democratic.

The evidence of this clear historical distinction between the typical
efficacy of religion in society and the universal failure of atheism
is the historical record, AND the atheists themselves, who all choose
to live in open democratic, tolerant, rights-based states such as the
USA, rather than totalitarian atheist shitholes like Nth Korea.
You can't pull any punches. Creationism is dishonest, insidious and
aimed at children.
Which is why atheists spend so much time on it.

Look, I understand that atheists who live in the USA, where
creation 'Science'(sic) is more active than in the the real world,
feel it is a significant threat, but it isn't.

Already, the largest Christian Church, the Catholics, teach EVOLUTION
IN THEIR SCHOOLS, So do Muslims, Jews, Bahai, Hindu's and Buddhists...

The Believer the American people elected President represents
the modern Majority Christian view (and on evolution, the majority
Muslim, Hindu, Bahai,Buddhist viw.. ets etc) so why do atheists

a) spend so much time debating Creationism and

b) deceitfully and dishonestly condemn ALL RELIGION when they
have, for the TRILLIONTH time, demonstrated what the VAST
MAJORITY of religious in the world ALREADY BELIEVE, that
Mankind EVOLVED and is still EVOLVING.

The answer to both questions reveals WHY atheism is such a tiny,
(0.7% in the USA, 2.3% worldwide) minority and, as studies show,
the most MISTRUSTED minority in America! 8^o

They attack Creationism because it is such An EASY TARGET.

You do not have to be a giant intellect to critique Creationism,
and as alt.atheism shows, they are severely lacking in the Giant
Intellect department.

But, what they lack in intellect they make up for in fanaticicism
and dogma, thus they are tempramentally suited to debating
Creationists! ;-)
It tries to destroy one of the cornerstones of modern science
It has failed utterly, get over it.

<skip uncontested science which has nothing to do with atheism
and is supported, taught and in most cases developed, by the
majority of modern religionists! eg Compare the budget, per capita
for science and development in the MAJORITY RELIGIOUS U.S.A. and that
in the only remaining ATHEIST regime, Nth Korea.

ie DESPITE the number of vocal creationists in the USA, with an
80% majority of religious, it has led the world in scientific
and technological development for decades!

Thus, what appears below is atheist PREJUDICE, repeated endlessly
without any proof, by many atheists, and refuted by the examples
above. It is an exercise in ATHEIST DOGMA, an unfounded BELIEF
based on unrepresentative, SELECTIVE argument by anecdotal
evidence, a FALLACY, it is profoundly UNSCIENTIFIC and irrational;
There is a war between knowledge and progress, and ignorance returning
to a religious dark age. Because creationists don't just reject
evolution but any science that contradicts their creation myths.
Creationists are not causing a return to the dark ages, they are in
retreat. The trend is in the opposite direction, the Religious Right
is in retreat, rational believers are in the ascendency.

Atheist hysteria arises from ignorance, and from their Tunnel Vision,
which focuses entirely on the unrepresentative Creationists and fundies,
and not upon the progressive religious majority.

Their distorted viewpoint is re-inforced by the fact that MAINSTREAM
BELIEVERS fregard the pathetically small numbers of Atheists as
INSIGNIFICANT and IRRLEVANT and hence do not present in forums like
alt.atheism and engage atheists in debate. Fundies do, becasue like
attracts like, and this re-enforces the atheist delusion
Just listen to ignorant idiots like Ben Stein and his interviewers
lying that science is responsible for all sorts of evils, therefore
eliminate science.
It sounds exactly like atheist arguments that 'religion is
responsible for all sorts of evils, therefore eliminate science.'

In both cases, while selective anecdotal evidence exists, it is
an unbalanced view, and fallacious.

More sound would be, "EVERY atheist state has been a tyranny,
'responsible for all sorts of evils'.. therefore.. " !!!

But I, and the democratic, pluralist MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies
we live in do NOT make such suggestions!!! Unlike fundie atheists
and fundie Christians we have a COMMITMENT to freedoms which both
a number of theist regimes, and ALL of the atheist regimes lack!

Atheists persistently misrepresent my views because they have
no rational response to what i actually say.

Just as banning science because of Hiroshima would be foolish,
so would banning religion because of the Inquisition.

In BOTH cases the positive contributions to human society are
IMMENSE and easily outweigh the abuses committed in the NAME of either.

With regard to atheism, this is not the case. EVERY atheist regime
has been a tyranny.

Despite this, there is no call to eliminate atheism! My goal has been,
and remains, to expose it's profound limitations, it's use as an anti-
theist tool for prejudice and hate, and to reform it in the social
sphere:

Results 1 - 10 of about 313 for insubject:95 insubject:Theses
insubject:for insubject:Atheist insubject:Reform.


95 Theses for Atheist Reform: #30 Progressive Revelation - The ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 5 authors - Last post: Jun 28
fasgnadh ***@yahoo.com.au alt atheism alt religion aus religion alt
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/dc5bfbbbab19f62f/.../a9e28feca7030ffa?...

95 theses for atheist reform: #3 atheists despise free, open ...
alt.atheism - 96 posts - 27 authors - Last post: May 31
8^o atheism needs reform. it has become a haven of blind faith and dogma
morton
lucifer needs to nail his 95 theses to the door of dawkin's house.. or ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/a47ac57f8178e574/.../e2104570cf1f39ce?...

95 theses for atheist reform: #2 an obsessional yearning to ...
alt.atheism - 127 posts - 24 authors - Last post: May 30
i mentioned atheist claims about god, which like your's, presuppose god's
existence... thank you for assisting me to illustrate morton lucifer's
95 theses
, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/26a7ff07/t/.../d/487c49a6f0e09656?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #57 the atheist aversion to truth ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 3 authors - Last post: Jun 5
not in the union of soviet states of america the atheist obviously
approve of.
... re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #47 atheist forgery # and
deception ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/dfd7feff/t/.../d/337b412d1f174b6f?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #75 atheists pretend religion to ...
alt.politics.republicans - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 2
.fasgnadh ***@yahoo.com alt politics republicans alt atheism alt
religion
alt religion christian alt religion christianity alt politics democrats
uk ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/4ac7feeb/t/.../d/3838000ec78881b1?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: # 85 atheists join with duke and al ...
alt.atheism - 71 posts - 17 authors - Last post: Jun 5
fasgnadh- ***@yahoo.com alt atheism talk atheism alt religion alt
politics
republicans alt poltiics democrats uk politics misc aus politics aus ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/8de2f4f1309df29?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #91 atheists destroy and ignore the ...
alt.philosophy - 10 posts - 3 authors - Last post: Jun 4
8^o even the ex-atheist chinese commo apparatchiks admit it: can
everyone see
the semi colon at the end of the thesis stated above? ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/ef6a0ae442a117b/.../1ccc01054fcc68f1?...

95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared he was ...
alt.atheism - 29 posts - 11 authors - Last post: Jun 14
fasgnadh ***@yahoo.com.au alt atheism alt religion alt politics
democrats
alt politics republicans uk politics misc aus religion aus politics alt ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/e717fef0/t/.../d/533dd396a4060190?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #55 atheism relies on propaganda and ...
alt.usenet.kooks - 1 post - 1 author - Last post: May 24
fasgnadh ***@yahoo.com.au alt usenet kooks alt philosophy alt
atheism alt
religion talk atheism aus religion alt religion christian alt religion ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/8587fef0/t/.../d/54b38264281fc7bb?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...

95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...

95 theses for atheist reform: #62 the atheists dilemma re: the ...
alt.atheism - 7 posts - 6 authors - Last post: May 28
b^d eventually, even with these atheist cretins, the penny drops, and
they domly
sense that unlike his own dull posts, i get a constant flow of responses
to ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/.../d/80056b6b9023bd00?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #61 "bertrand russell knew we ...
alt.atheism - 47 posts - 18 authors - Last post: Jun 15
fasgnadh ***@yahoo.com.au alt atheism alt philosophy alt religion
alt ...
subject: re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared
he ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/.../d/a8c07a85c6eb385e?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #29 illogical and irrational ...
alt.atheism - 80 posts - 19 authors - Last post: Jun 7
fasgnadh ***@yahoo.com.au alt atheism talk atheism alt atheism
satire alt
usenet kooks alt politics communism alt relighion bob larter believes
god ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/91a043f8f41b7c8b?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #289 atheists cannot debate real ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 28
fasgnadh ***@yahoo.com.au alt atheism alt religion aus religion alt
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/4c703e95d6ebd86a?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #5 - atheists defend the atheist ...
alt.atheism - 231 posts - 44 authors - Last post: May 29
b^] suck it up, you atheist nutjobs!!!! at most it means it doesn't give
christians the undeserved privileges now that is a lie. in these atheist
tyrannies, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/f35c7147561b3b09?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #51: suicide and despair re: faith ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 5 authors - Last post: May 23
wolak, arthur j. p 104 # # in these nations, the governments viewed
atheism as
an # intrinsic part of communist ideology. strange thing is . ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/1e7594877aad8753?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Jun 13
morton lucifer wrote: 95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist
'standard of
proof'(sic) we have now seen numerous examples of the atheist (lack of
a) ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/792d01de6aa2b8b9?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...

95 theses for atheist reform: #62 the atheists dilemma re: the ...
alt.atheism - 7 posts - 6 authors - Last post: May 28
b^d eventually, even with these atheist cretins, the penny drops, and
they domly
sense that unlike his own dull posts, i get a constant flow of responses
to ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/.../d/80056b6b9023bd00?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #61 "bertrand russell knew we ...
alt.atheism - 47 posts - 18 authors - Last post: Jun 15
fasgnadh ***@yahoo.com.au alt atheism alt philosophy alt religion
alt ...
subject: re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared
he ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/.../d/a8c07a85c6eb385e?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #29 illogical and irrational ...
alt.atheism - 80 posts - 19 authors - Last post: Jun 7
fasgnadh ***@yahoo.com.au alt atheism talk atheism alt atheism
satire alt
usenet kooks alt politics communism alt relighion bob larter believes
god ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/91a043f8f41b7c8b?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #289 atheists cannot debate real ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 28
fasgnadh ***@yahoo.com.au alt atheism alt religion aus religion alt
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/4c703e95d6ebd86a?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #5 - atheists defend the atheist ...
alt.atheism - 231 posts - 44 authors - Last post: May 29
b^] suck it up, you atheist nutjobs!!!! at most it means it doesn't give
christians the undeserved privileges now that is a lie. in these atheist
tyrannies, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/f35c7147561b3b09?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #51: suicide and despair re: faith ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 5 authors - Last post: May 23
wolak, arthur j. p 104 # # in these nations, the governments viewed
atheism as
an # intrinsic part of communist ideology. strange thing is . ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/1e7594877aad8753?hl=en

95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Jun 13
morton lucifer wrote: 95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist
'standard of
proof'(sic) we have now seen numerous examples of the atheist (lack of
a) ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/792d01de6aa2b8b9?hl=en
You can't dismiss evolution, cosmology and other origins sciences
without eliminating the rest of science because they all use the same
scientific method.
Just as you can't dismiss religion, faith and Spiritual values,
Look at what happened to the atheist states which tried;

60,000,000 terrorised, tortured and murdered in just 7 decades in
the Union of Savage Slaughter and repression(USSR) Mao's Cultural
Devolution and Great Leap Backward and Pol Pot's Cambodian
genocide.

Remember, 100% of atheist states have been totalitarian tyrannies,
so atheists are on thin ice citing examples of theist tyranny, when
they are ignoring the vast majority of progressive theist states,
including the modern, democratic, rights-based MAJORITY RELIGIOUS
societies like Australia and the USA, which the ATHEISTS THEMSELVES
choose to live in.. rather than atheist Nth Korea!

So this argument is bogus and based on SELECTIVE examples and gross
ignorance of history;
Look what happened to the Islamic world when they replaced science
with religious ignorance almost a thousand years ago. It entered its
own religious dark ages from which it still hasn't emerged.
The European dark age lasted about 1200 years, from Rome's adoption of
Christianity to the enlightenment. My own feeling is that the church
was too busy trying to go after heretical sects to go after people
investigating how the world works. Even though they still managed to
execute those with a high profile, many kept their heads down and
managed to survive to continue their work. In England Henry VII
removing the church's econonomic and political power was also a major
contribution to this.
It seems plausible, because like all human and natural phenomena,
Spiritual teachings do go through natural cycles of birth, growth,
and decline, seasons.

But in the modern era historian have noted the global synergies which
earlier, tribal and nationalist viewpoints obscured.

We are all familiar with Christianity's debt to Judaism,
It is a PROGRESSIVE REVELATION.

Judaism was awaiting a Messiah, but missed his coming, and it was
the Christians who carried the God of Abraham and Moses into the West,
not their Jewish pre-decessors.

Initially Christianity spread because it was USEFUL (Societies adopt
useful new ideas, in science, technology, maths, music AND religioun,
because NEW perspectives and Understandings are always forming
even if the underlying scientific (or Religious) REALITY remains
unchanged, but only partially UNDERSTOOD) But in early human history,
forms of social and political organisation made progress SLOW
and the Feudal forms of social organisation steadily seeped into and
corrupted the Church, until it BECAME a POLITICAL not Spiritual entiy,
The Holy Roman Empire.

What is missed in the unbalanced atheist analysis is critical-

* There was no alternative, Atheism contributed nothing, All societies
were based on religion, all the Great and enduring CIVILIZATIONS
WERE founded on Spiritual Values.

So it's like blaming parents for being conservative, when no one
else couls, or would do the job, half as well.

* The Dark ages in Europe is only part of the story, Islamic
Civilisation was flowering with enormous advances in Science,
Mathematics, Medicine.

RELIGION REMAINED THE DRIVING FORCE FOR PROGRESS, once to take the
global perspective and abandon the SELECTIVE EXAMPLE fallacy of
the atheists! B^]

Where was atheism while Islam was developing Hospitals and
Surgical instruments, street lighting and Algebra?

Nowhere to be seen

And Islam injected this new ZeitGeist, all of ist inspirational
new discoveries (Plus the works of Classical Greece) into Europe
via Andalusia, in what is now modern Spain.

In Music the Lute (El Oud) began the Troubadour tradition, the
foundation of Western Music. In mathematics the development of
Markets could not have flourished using Roman numerals, it required
ARABIC NUMERALS (Actually,transmitted from the Hindu Civilisation ;-)
Harvey's work on the bloodstream is merely a transcription
of an Arab text, the Hospice, Surgical Instruments, even philosophy
and critical thought were all re-energised by the brilliant Islamic
Civilisation..

and we are all aware of what the Christian west did with it,
the Protestant Scots who were the foundation of Industrial
Revolution, All the Great theist scientist from Galileao to Newton
(and yes we know that Galileo was persecuted, get over it ;-)

And the one point I agree with Chris lee, yes, Islam did
over time, enter it's own Dark Age, as all human organisations
can when they ossify, especially as their nations fell under
political corruption, Imperialism and Colonisation.

But here is the critical point, in each case those great world
religions inspired and sustained great civilisations, through the
most difficult stages of human social, political, economic and
SPIRITUAL evolution.. and the current state of the Art; free,
democratic, MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies were those religious
majorities CHOOSE and INSTALL separation of Church and State
with SECULAR government, but guaranteing Freedom of Religion,
is the achievement of that long struggle..

.. and atheism contributed BUGGER ALL, because despite
a few exceptional individuals (Voltaire, Shaw..) EVERY
atheist state was a totalitarian shithole!! 8^o

Put simply, THERE WERE NO GREAT AND ENDURING ATHEIST
CIVILISATIONS which might have made a few mistakes
along the way as the religious ones did.

This is the Balance. This is the Balance. This is the Balance.


Atheists need to develop a balanced perspective, if they
are to be taken seriously and, working with the religions,
make a positive contribution to the evolution of our Global
Civilisation.
John Baker
2009-08-09 08:49:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 03:14:34 GMT, Morton Lucifer <"95
Theses"@atheist-reformation.org> wrote:


Fuck off, fagsnatch, you drooling imbecile.
beatyerbrainsout
2009-08-09 11:14:08 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 8, 8:14 pm, Morton Lucifer <"95 Theses"@atheist-
reformation.org> wrote:


Whether or not a particular scientist proclaims his religious
feelings, organized religion historically has indeed provided
significant roadblocks to scientific progress and persecuted (at
times, to the death) some of the leading lights of scientic endeavor.
Even today, Christians frequently deride Darwinism, despite the fact
that they don't really understand it because they are not trained in
the biological sciences. The question is whether evolution, alone,
has led to the diversity of life on the planet, not whether it has
existed, because it plainly has and does right before our very eyes.
Fundamentalist Christians cling to the idea that an animal species is
a static thing, created by God, that does not change, when so much
readily available evidence indicates much the opposite. In a similar
way, they opposed the findings of astronomers who posited that the
earth was a sphere, not flat, and that the sun is at the center of the
solar system, not the earth. They similarly deny that life exists
anywhere else in the universe, when life appears to be ubiquitous in
very hostile environments right here on earth and perhaps within our
own solar system. That there are perhaps billions of earth-like
planets throughout the universe where life has developed is no longer
a controversy among educated people. Yet the Fundies continue to
cling to their Bibles and deny deny deny. So for you to state that
religion, as such, is a friend of science, just doesn't hold water.
Morton Lucifer
2009-08-09 13:20:31 UTC
Permalink
"As a student of history, I also know civilisation's debt to Islam. It
was Islam – at places like Al-Azhar University – that carried the
light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for
Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment. "

"It was innovation in Muslim communities
that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of
navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how
disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us
majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished
music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And
throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the
possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality."

- Barack Obama, Cairo Speech praising Islamic Civilisation.


# From: raven1 <***@nevermore.com>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism
# Subject: Re: Anyone seen Hysteria, Abu Baker Bashir and Kelsey
Bjarnyard? B^D
# Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:15:11 -0500
# Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
#
# There has never been a "Great, Enduring Atheist Civilization"
I will adopt your technique of snipping everything your
opponent says and ignoring it..

In your case that meant you failed to refute or rebut
any of the arguments in my post, or the FACTS supporting it..

In my case, I didn't delete any supporting evidence because
there was none..

You attacked Christian fundies, Creationists, for their
lack of scientific understanding, which I had already done,
and then you rejected ALL OF RELIGION, on that flimsy basis.
Post by beatyerbrainsout
for you to state that
religion, as such, is a friend of science, just doesn't hold water.
That is a simple fallacy.

Judaism, Islam, Bahai, Buddhits, Hindu, ..are all religions,
but they are not the Christian fundies which were the sole
targets of your argument (as I said in my post, atheists
only ever attack the fundies, then illegitimately extrapolate
to ALL religion.

So your entire argument attacking Creationists, does not
support your illogical conclusion that
religion per se is in conflict with science. Fundies are,
but they are atypical.

The USA is majority religious, they elect Christians like
Obama and members of Congress who support the teaching of evolution.

Evolution is taught in Jewish, Islamic and Christian schools
in Australia.

Every Christian I have ever known was taught, understands
and accepts evolution.

I know that Americans are more exposed to Creationist crazies,
you have my sympathies, but that is due to failures in
American education; http://tinyurl.com/n5pjne

But, even in the USA, Creationists are NOT THE
MAJORITY of Christians, let alone of ALL THE RELIGIOUS, so for you
to COLLECTIVELY CONDEMN *RELIGION* on the basis of a MINORITY
of religious is just injustice and irrationality based on prejudice.

Not at all in line with science and the Scientific Method! B^p

Better minds than yours know that there is no inherent conflict
between faith and reason, between Religion and Science;


" The Harmony of Science and Religion"

"Science without religion is lame,
religion without science is blind."

- Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion:
a Symposium", 1941
^^^^^

---------


..science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with
the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling,
however, springs from the sphere of Religion... science without religion
is lame, religion without science is blind.

- Albert Einstein "Ideas and Opinions" 1954

The Greatness of God is something we cannot understand even though we
are aware of it

- Rene Descarte 1596-1650 mathematician and philosopher


I see everywhere the inevitable expression of the infinite in the world

- Louis Pasteur 1822-95

As a blind man has no idea of colours, so have we no idea of the manner
by which the All-Wise God perceives and understands all things.

- Sir Isaac Newton 1642-1727

The scientific picture of the real world around me is very
deficient...Science cannot tell us why music delights us, of why and how
an old song can move us to tears.... Science is reticent too when it is
a question of the great Unity... of which we all somehow form a part, to
which we belong. The most popular name for it in our time is God.

- Erwin Schroedinger 1933 Nobel prize in Physics
"My view of the World" 1918

There can never be any real opposition between religion and science.
Every serious and reflective person realizes, I think, that the
religious elements in his nature must be recognized and cultivated if
all the powers of the human soul are to act together in perfect balance
and harmony.

- Max Planck winner of the 1918 Nobel prize in Physics
"Where is Science Going" 1918

"Something unknown is doing we don't know what"
-Sir Arthur Eddington

Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can
soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not
possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the
wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of
superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone
he would make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of
materialism.

- 'Abdu'l - Baha "Paris Talks" 1911

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of
the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as
well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces
worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the
facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost
beyond question." (2)

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in
the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the
complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use
the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological
status of the word." (3)

Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it
quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be
some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the
explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something
instead of nothing." (6)

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards,
a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the
Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could
never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances
indicate the universe was created for man to live in." (7)

George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the
thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather,
Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without
intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence
of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially
crafted the cosmos for our benefit?" (8)

Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or
Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present
state of scientific theory." (9)

Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique
event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very
delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to
permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say
'supernatural') plan." (10)

Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe
has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance." (11)

Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty
of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very
tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am
sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it." (12)

Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by
our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the
divine." (13)

Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has
lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad
dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to
conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he
is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for
centuries." (14)

Stephen Hawking (British astrophysicist): "Then we shall… be able to
take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and
the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the
ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of
God." (15)

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my
career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced
atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be
writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-
Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are
straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand
them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable
logic of my own special branch of physics." (16) Note: Tipler since
has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, The
Physics Of Christianity.

Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): "We know that nature is
described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created
it."(17)

Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the
existence of God – the design argument of Paley – updated and
refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie
evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that
requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one....
Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the
teleological or design argument." (18)

Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe,
in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but
our picture is incomplete without Him [God]." (19)

Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no
question but that a God will always be needed." (20)

Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): "This type of universe,
however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial
conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'." (21)

Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981
Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the
marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how.
The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God
in the universe and in my own life." (22)

Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and
director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the
University of Georgia): "The significance and joy in my science comes
in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to
myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little
corner of God's plan." (23)



Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to
understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a
superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to
comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science." (24)

Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in
Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I
can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100
billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed
and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would
contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that
the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out
of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to
that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may
extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be
entirely unique." (25)


"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a
little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the
ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that
someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It
does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the
child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books - a
mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly
suspects." - Albert Einstein

"The statistical probability that organic structures and the most
precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be
generated by accident, is zero."- Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist)
Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry
I. Prigogine, N. Gregair, A. Babbyabtz, Physics Today 25, pp. 23-28

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us
with senses, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use
and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can obtain by
them. He would not require us to deny sense and reason in physical
matters which are set before our eyes and minds by direct experience or
necessary demonstrations.

- Galileo Galilei 1615.

The glory and greatness of the Almighty God are marvellously discerned
in all His works and divinely read in the open book of heaven

- Galileo Galilei 1564-1642

"The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a
knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge,
and would be total chaos if any of the natural 'constants' were off
even slightly. You see," Davies adds, "even if you dismiss man as a
chance happening, the fact remains that the universe seems
unreasonably suited to the existence of life -- almost contrived --
you might say a 'put-up job'."- Dr. Paul Davies
(noted author and Professor of Theoretical Physics at Adelaide
University)


Just a few believers who exceeded the intellectual output of this
ignorant atheist fuckwit and his cronies in alt.atheism;

Sir Francis Bacon - established the scientific method of inquiry based
on experimentation and inductive reasoning.

Nicolaus Copernicus Catholic canon who introduced a heliocentric world view.

William Turner the "father of English botany"

John Napier Scottish mathematician known for inventing logarithms,
Napier's bones, and being the popularizer of the use of decimals.

Johannes Kepler His model of the cosmos based on nesting Platonic solids
was explicitly driven by religious ideas; his later and most famous
scientific contribution, the Kepler's laws of planetary motion, was
based on empirical data that he obtained from Tycho Brahe's meticulous
astronomical observations,

Galileo Galilei

René Descartes one of the key thinkers of the Scientific Revolution in
the Western World. honoured by having the Cartesian coordinate system
used in plane geometry and algebra named after him. He did important
work on invariants and geometry. His Meditations on First Philosophy
partially concerns theology and he was devoted to reconciling his ideas
with the dogmas of Catholic Faith to which he was loyal.

Blaise Pascal well-known for Pascal's law (physics), Pascal's theorem
(math), and Pascal's Wager (theology).

Nicolas Steno a pioneer in both anatomy and geology

Robert Boyle Scientist and theologian who argued that the study of
science could improve glorification of God.

John Wallis As a mathematician he wrote Arithmetica Infinitorumis,
introduced the term Continued fraction, worked on cryptography, helped
develop calculus, and is further known for the Wallis product.


Gottfried Leibniz A polymath who worked on determinants, a calculating
machine

Isaac Newton (He is regarded as one of the greatest scientists and
mathematicians in history.

Thomas Bayes Bayes' theorem. Fellow of the Royal Society

Firmin Abauzit A physicist and theologian.

Carolus Linnaeus father of modern taxonomy, contributions to ecology.

Leonhard Euler mathematician and physicist,

Maria Gaetana Agnesi mathematician

Isaac Milner Lucasian Professor of Mathematics
Michael Faraday

Charles Babbage

Gregor Mendel "father of modern genetics"

Asa Gray - Gray's Manual remains a pivotal work in botany.

Louis Pasteur Inventor of the pasteurization method, a french chemist
and microbiologist. He also solved the mysteries of rabies, anthrax,
chicken cholera, and silkworm diseases, and contributed to the
development of the first vaccines.


Lord Kelvin Thermodynamics. winner of the Copley Medal and the Royal Medal,

Pierre Duhem Thermodynamic potentials

Dmitri Egorov mathematician - differential geometry

John Ambrose Flemingthe Right-hand rule and work on vacuum tubes,
Fleming valve. the Hughes Medal.

Max Planck founder of Quantum mechanics (1918 Nobel Prize in Physics

Edward Arthur Milne astrophysicist and mathematician proposed the Milne
model and had a Moon crater named for him. Gold Medal of the Royal
Astronomical Society,

Arthur Compton Nobel Prize in Physics.

Georges Lemaître proposed the Big Bang theory. Roman Catholic priest

Sir Robert Boyd pioneer in British space science

von Weizsäcker nuclear physicist Bethe-Weizsäcker formula.

Charles Hard Townes 1964 Nobel Prize in Physics 1966 wrote The
Convergence of Science and Religion.

Freeman Dyson the Lorentz Medal, the Max Planck Medal, and the Lewis
Thomas Prize.

John T. Houghtonco-chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate
Change gold medal from the Royal Astronomical Society.

Micha? Heller mathematical physicist relativistic physics and
Noncommutative geometry.

Eric PriestSolar Magnetohydrodynamics , won the George Ellery Hale Prize

Francis Collins director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute.

John D. Barrow English cosmologist implications of the Anthropic principle.

Denis Alexander Director of the Faraday Institute and author of
Rebuilding the Matrix - Science and Faith in the 21st Century.

Christopher IshamTheoretical physicist who developed HPO formalism.

Martin NowakEvolutionary biologist and mathematician best known for
evolutionary dynamics.


And that's just a partial list of Western scientists who were believers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists
Morton Lucifer
2009-08-09 12:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morton Lucifer
On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT), Budikka666
I finally got a chance to watch the first two parts of this series and
it's excellent. Dawkins does a terrific job.
At being a TV presenter with an atheist agenda,
the brilliance was Darwin's and he WAS NOT an Atheist!!!! B^p
From the way atheists carry on you would think that Atheists led
the evolution and science charge and religion opposed it. B^D
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Religion has led the scientific progress in civilisation,
just as it has inspired the artistic, architectural,
mathematical and musical output,
and atheism has played NO SIGNIFICANT ROLE!
Two of the most significant modern scientific developments
serve to illustrate this;
The Theory of Evolution was propounded by Charles Darwin, who not only
explicitly stated that he was NOT an atheist, but was a churchgoer! B^D
The other major scientific theory which blows Creationist fundies
out of the water is the Big Bang Theory.
Again, atheists had nothing to do with the science,
it is the work of Lemaitre, a Belgian Roman Catholic priest,
honorary prelate, professor of physics and astronomer
at the Catholic University of Leuven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
So, why is it that every time atheists discuss science, they present
it as battle between Atheist scientists and Religious Creation
'Science'(sic) when the VAST MAJORITY of religious support and teach
Evolution, and religions have played a far greater role in CREATING
science than Atheists, who have never inspired a great or enduring
civilisation, which religions have done all through history.
We live in what the historians designated as Judeao-Christian
Civilisation, and which is more accurately seen as
Judeao-Christian-Islamic civilisation, and yet if you listen to
Atheists, who refuse to acknowledge the contributions of religion,
and NEVER provide an accurate or balanced view,
See Bukakke's rabid rant below for an example of their unbalanced view.
Post by Morton Lucifer
you can only conclude
that they are either completely ignorant of History, or else they are
deliberately distorting it, as they do the respective roles of
atheistm and religion in Science. [See below for a summary of
contributions by individual believers, the major scientists in history,
responsible for the most significant discoveries! And this does not
include the greatest contribution of religion; inspiring and sustaining
the progressive CIVILISATIONS, in which these advances could take place,
Contrast that with 100% of Atheist states being tyrannies and a
balanced Ledger is obtained! B^]
He holds back no punches when addressing the conflicting, evidence-
free stories told by the creationists with the fact of evolution.
So the atheists interest in Evolution is not the science, but it's use
to promote their cause by their endless beating up on Creationism,
not the mainstream religious position, but the only one the atheists
feel able to tackle, because it's fundamentalism is as simplistic
as their own!
Religion DOES NOT EQUAL CREATIONISM.
Dawkins and the deceitful atheist movement he represents select
Creationism as an easy target (theists such as Shelby-Spong have
already done the demolition work on Creationism, decades ago.
Dawkins merely plagiarises his work,
and pretends that ALL religious are defeated
if Creationism is! pfffft! )
How many times have atheist hypocrites claimed, falsely, that I am
claiming that ALL atheists are guilty of the crimes of the atheist
tyrannies. Once more for the record, the atheist regimes are responsible
for the terror torture and death of over 60,000,000
victims, not every modern atheist.
But MODERN atheists ARE GUILTY of
1. Hypocrisy, because it is THEY who use the illegitimate concept
of Collective Guilt and Collective Punishment. They continually
hold 'RELIGION' and ALL religious, to be responsible for the acts
of a tiny minority of religious.
2. Holocaust denial - pretending that the 60,000,000 dead in the USSR,
Maoist China, and Pol Pots Year Zero was not the work of ATHEIST
REGIMES.
The difference then between my historical criticism of atheist tyranny
and Atheist condemnation of religion based on selecting a few
unrepresentative incidents and holding all religions collectively
responsible for them is that I am discriminating, blaming only the
If 16 terrorists attack the WTC they simply blame 'theists' ..
it is a vile practice of COLLECTIVE BLAME.
It is made worse, more hypocritical, because EVERY atheist regime has been
a totalitarian tyranny, making it the NORM for atheist societies,
but every civilisation has been based on Spiritual Teachings, and only
most modern religious societies are democratic.
The evidence of this clear historical distinction between the typical
efficacy of religion in society and the universal failure of atheism
is the historical record, AND the atheists themselves, who all choose
to live in open democratic, tolerant, rights-based states such as the
USA, rather than totalitarian atheist shitholes like Nth Korea.
You can't pull any punches. Creationism is dishonest, insidious and
aimed at children.
Which is why atheists spend so much time on it.
Look, I understand that atheists who live in the USA, where
creation 'Science'(sic) is more active than in the the real world,
feel it is a significant threat, but it isn't.
Already, the largest Christian Church, the Catholics, teach EVOLUTION
IN THEIR SCHOOLS, So do Muslims, Jews, Bahai, Hindu's and Buddhists...
The Believer the American people elected President represents
the modern Majority Christian view (and on evolution, the majority
Muslim, Hindu, Bahai,Buddhist viw.. ets etc) so why do atheists
a) spend so much time debating Creationism and
b) deceitfully and dishonestly condemn ALL RELIGION when they
have, for the TRILLIONTH time, demonstrated what the VAST
MAJORITY of religious in the world ALREADY BELIEVE, that
Mankind EVOLVED and is still EVOLVING.
The answer to both questions reveals WHY atheism is such a tiny,
(0.7% in the USA, 2.3% worldwide) minority and, as studies show,
the most MISTRUSTED minority in America! 8^o
They attack Creationism because it is such An EASY TARGET.
You do not have to be a giant intellect to critique Creationism,
and as alt.atheism shows, they are severely lacking in the Giant
Intellect department.
But, what they lack in intellect they make up for in fanaticicism
and dogma, thus they are tempramentally suited to debating
Creationists! ;-)
It tries to destroy one of the cornerstones of modern science
It has failed utterly, get over it.
<skip uncontested science which has nothing to do with atheism
and is supported, taught and in most cases developed, by the
majority of modern religionists! eg Compare the budget, per capita
for science and development in the MAJORITY RELIGIOUS U.S.A. and that
in the only remaining ATHEIST regime, Nth Korea.
ie DESPITE the number of vocal creationists in the USA, with an
80% majority of religious, it has led the world in scientific
and technological development for decades!
Thus, what appears below is atheist PREJUDICE, repeated endlessly
without any proof, by many atheists, and refuted by the examples
above. It is an exercise in ATHEIST DOGMA, an unfounded BELIEF
based on unrepresentative, SELECTIVE argument by anecdotal
evidence, a FALLACY, it is profoundly UNSCIENTIFIC and irrational;
There is a war between knowledge and progress, and ignorance returning
to a religious dark age. Because creationists don't just reject
evolution but any science that contradicts their creation myths.
Creationists are not causing a return to the dark ages, they are in
retreat. The trend is in the opposite direction, the Religious Right
is in retreat, rational believers are in the ascendency.
Atheist hysteria arises from ignorance, and from their Tunnel Vision,
which focuses entirely on the unrepresentative Creationists and fundies,
and not upon the progressive religious majority.
Their distorted viewpoint is re-inforced by the fact that MAINSTREAM
BELIEVERS fregard the pathetically small numbers of Atheists as
INSIGNIFICANT and IRRLEVANT and hence do not present in forums like
alt.atheism and engage atheists in debate. Fundies do, because
like attracts like, and this re-enforces the atheist delusion as
usually the only religious they encounter are dogmatists, like
themselves
Just listen to ignorant idiots like Ben Stein and his interviewers
lying that science is responsible for all sorts of evils, therefore
eliminate science.
It sounds exactly like atheist arguments that 'religion is
responsible for all sorts of evils, therefore eliminate science.'
In both cases, while selective anecdotal evidence exists, it is
an unbalanced view, and fallacious.
More sound would be, "EVERY atheist state has been a tyranny,
'responsible for all sorts of evils'.. therefore.. " !!!
But I, and the democratic, pluralist MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies
we live in do NOT make such suggestions!!! Unlike fundie atheists
and fundie Christians we have a COMMITMENT to freedoms which both
a number of theist regimes, and ALL of the atheist regimes lack!
Atheists persistently misrepresent my views because they have
no rational response to what i actually say.
Just as banning science because of Hiroshima would be foolish,
so would banning religion because of the Inquisition.
In BOTH cases the positive contributions to human society are
IMMENSE and easily outweigh the abuses committed in the NAME of either.
With regard to atheism, this is not the case. EVERY atheist regime
has been a tyranny.
Despite this, there is no call to eliminate atheism! My goal has been,
and remains, to expose it's profound limitations, it's use as an anti-
theist tool for prejudice and hate, and to reform it in the social
Results 1 - 10 of about 313 for insubject:95 insubject:Theses
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8^o atheism needs reform. it has become a haven of blind faith and dogma morton
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b^d eventually, even with these atheist cretins, the penny drops, and they domly
sense that unlike his own dull posts, i get a constant flow of responses to ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/.../d/80056b6b9023bd00?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #61 "bertrand russell knew we ...
alt.atheism - 47 posts - 18 authors - Last post: Jun 15
subject: re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared he ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/.../d/a8c07a85c6eb385e?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #29 illogical and irrational ...
alt.atheism - 80 posts - 19 authors - Last post: Jun 7
usenet kooks alt politics communism alt relighion bob larter believes god ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/91a043f8f41b7c8b?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #289 atheists cannot debate real ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 28
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics alt ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/4c703e95d6ebd86a?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #5 - atheists defend the atheist ...
alt.atheism - 231 posts - 44 authors - Last post: May 29
b^] suck it up, you atheist nutjobs!!!! at most it means it doesn't give
christians the undeserved privileges now that is a lie. in these atheist
tyrannies, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/f35c7147561b3b09?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #51: suicide and despair re: faith ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 5 authors - Last post: May 23
wolak, arthur j. p 104 # # in these nations, the governments viewed atheism as
an # intrinsic part of communist ideology. strange thing is . ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/1e7594877aad8753?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Jun 13
morton lucifer wrote: 95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of
proof'(sic) we have now seen numerous examples of the atheist (lack of a) ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/792d01de6aa2b8b9?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...
95 theses for atheist reform: #62 the atheists dilemma re: the ...
alt.atheism - 7 posts - 6 authors - Last post: May 28
b^d eventually, even with these atheist cretins, the penny drops, and they domly
sense that unlike his own dull posts, i get a constant flow of responses to ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/.../d/80056b6b9023bd00?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #61 "bertrand russell knew we ...
alt.atheism - 47 posts - 18 authors - Last post: Jun 15
subject: re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared he ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/.../d/a8c07a85c6eb385e?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #29 illogical and irrational ...
alt.atheism - 80 posts - 19 authors - Last post: Jun 7
usenet kooks alt politics communism alt relighion bob larter believes god ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/91a043f8f41b7c8b?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #289 atheists cannot debate real ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 28
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics alt ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/4c703e95d6ebd86a?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #5 - atheists defend the atheist ...
alt.atheism - 231 posts - 44 authors - Last post: May 29
b^] suck it up, you atheist nutjobs!!!! at most it means it doesn't give
christians the undeserved privileges now that is a lie. in these atheist
tyrannies, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/f35c7147561b3b09?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #51: suicide and despair re: faith ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 5 authors - Last post: May 23
wolak, arthur j. p 104 # # in these nations, the governments viewed atheism as
an # intrinsic part of communist ideology. strange thing is . ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/1e7594877aad8753?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Jun 13
morton lucifer wrote: 95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of
proof'(sic) we have now seen numerous examples of the atheist (lack of a) ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/792d01de6aa2b8b9?hl=en
You can't dismiss evolution, cosmology and other origins sciences
without eliminating the rest of science because they all use the same
scientific method.
Just as you can't dismiss religion, faith and Spiritual values,
Look at what happened to the atheist states which tried;
60,000,000 terrorised, tortured and murdered in just 7 decades in
the Union of Savage Slaughter and repression(USSR) Mao's Cultural
Devolution and Great Leap Backward and Pol Pot's Cambodian
genocide.
Remember, 100% of atheist states have been totalitarian tyrannies,
so atheists are on thin ice citing examples of theist tyranny, when
they are ignoring the vast majority of progressive theist states,
including the modern, democratic, rights-based MAJORITY RELIGIOUS
societies like Australia and the USA, which the ATHEISTS THEMSELVES
choose to live in.. rather than atheist Nth Korea!
So this argument is bogus and based on SELECTIVE examples and gross
ignorance of history;
Look what happened to the Islamic world when they replaced science
with religious ignorance almost a thousand years ago. It entered its
own religious dark ages from which it still hasn't emerged.
The European dark age lasted about 1200 years, from Rome's adoption of
Christianity to the enlightenment. My own feeling is that the church
was too busy trying to go after heretical sects to go after people
investigating how the world works. Even though they still managed to
execute those with a high profile, many kept their heads down and
managed to survive to continue their work. In England Henry VII
removing the church's econonomic and political power was also a major
contribution to this.
It seems plausible, because like all human and natural phenomena,
Spiritual teachings do go through natural cycles of birth, growth,
and decline, seasons.
But in the modern era historian have noted the global synergies which earlier,
tribal and nationalist viewpoints obscured.
We are all familiar with Christianity's debt to Judaism,
It is a PROGRESSIVE REVELATION.
Judaism was awaiting a Messiah, but missed his coming, and it was
the Christians who carried the God of Abraham and Moses into the West,
not their Jewish pre-decessors.
Initially Christianity spread because it was USEFUL (Societies adopt
useful new ideas, in science, technology, maths, music AND religioun,
because NEW perspectives and Understandings are always forming
even if the underlying scientific (or Religious) REALITY remains
unchanged, but only partially UNDERSTOOD) But in early human history,
forms of social and political organisation made progress SLOW
and the Feudal forms of social organisation steadily seeped into and
corrupted the Church, until it BECAME a POLITICAL not Spiritual entiy,
The Holy Roman Empire.
What is missed in the unbalanced atheist analysis is critical-
* There was no alternative, Atheism contributed nothing, All societies
were based on religion, all the Great and enduring CIVILIZATIONS
WERE founded on Spiritual Values.
So it's like blaming parents for being conservative, when no one
else couls, or would do the job, half as well.
* The Dark ages in Europe is only part of the story, Islamic
Civilisation was flowering with enormous advances in Science,
Mathematics, Medicine.
RELIGION REMAINED THE DRIVING FORCE FOR PROGRESS, once to take the
global perspective and abandon the SELECTIVE EXAMPLE fallacy of
the atheists! B^]
Where was atheism while Islam was developing Hospitals and
Surgical instruments, street lighting and Algebra?
Nowhere to be seen
And Islam injected this new ZeitGeist, all of ist inspirational
new discoveries (Plus the works of Classical Greece) into Europe
via Andalusia, in what is now modern Spain.
In Music the Lute (El Oud) began the Troubadour tradition, the
foundation of Western Music. In mathematics the development of
Markets could not have flourished using Roman numerals, it required
ARABIC NUMERALS (Actually,transmitted from the Hindu Civilisation ;-)
Harvey's work on the bloodstream is merely a transcription
of an Arab text, the Hospice, Surgical Instruments, even philosophy
and critical thought were all re-energised by the brilliant Islamic
Civilisation..
and we are all aware of what the Christian west did with it,
the Protestant Scots who were the foundation of Industrial
Revolution, All the Great theist scientist from Galileao to Newton
You mean like when they burned Giordano Bruno at the stake,
As I said, theists and myself, acknowledge the crimes committed
in the name of religion, atheist hololcaust deniers and supporters
of Child infanticide like Bukakke will DEFEND, but not admit
wrong, in the far greater Atheist holocausts, in which over 60,000,000
people were terrorised tortured and murdered by atheist regimes.. in
the past century.. not in the ancient times of medieval brutality! 8^o

But Bukakke and the other ranting atheists are incapable of taking
a balanced view, in the face of historical documentation of the
Atheist holocausts in the Union of Savage Slaughter and Repression
(USSR), Mao's Great Leap Backwards and Cultural Devolution, and Pol
Pot's Cambodian genocide, Atheists SNIP and RUN, and post pathetic
anecdotes od on or two individuals wronged;
and
confined Galilei to his house for daring to tell the truth you
ignorant, LYING jackass?
Budikka
Here we see proof that Bukakke, the poor irrational, frothing
fanatic, does not even read the posts she ships and responds to
with mindless ad hom.. I had already acknowledged the persecution
of Galileo, ... we have heard this individual case a million times;
Post by Morton Lucifer
(and yes we know that Galileo was persecuted, get over it ;-)
Here's the difference.

One man was threatened and persecuted by the Church,
'
SIXTY MILLION PEOPLE were murdered by Atheist regimes

The Church, centuries late, admitted it was wrong, and issued
a posthumous apology to Galileo

ALL The athesits in alt.atheism remain deniers of the atheist
holocaust, Bukakke even defends the Atheist thugs who tortured,
terrorised and murdered a 12 year old boy and his siblings,
she claims he was a 'despot', but when challenged for proof of
this vicious slander blaming the VICTIM for his assasination,
she cut and RAN.

In the view of all you atheist HYPOCRITES, is the THREAT to
Galileo, who remained a devout Christian despite his mistreatment
at the hands of the Church, worse than the murder of a 12 year old?

WHERE IS YOUR SENSE OF JUSTICE, let alone of proportion.

You TROT OUT the same old shit from CENTURIES ago, of Inquisitions
and witch burnings than killed TENS of thousands at most, in a time
when the whole world was primitive and barbaric, and you bury your
heads up your arses and refuse to look at the MASSIVE SLAUGHTER,
which has taken place in EVERY ATHEIST REGIME.. IN THE 'MODERN' ERA!

8^o

And while I have ALWAYS acknowledged the crimes committed in
the name of religion, while I was condemning the Taliban extremists
before any of you had even heard of them, while I balance the
crimes committed by both, and point out that religion has, on the
positive side, produced great and enduring civilisations and
guided mankind on it's social, political and spiritual evolution...

Atheists will never admit the positive contributions of religion,
never admit the crimes of atheist states, even though EVERY one
of them has been a totalitarian shithole and refuse to accept
the balanced view .

The truth is, every great and enduring civilisation in history
is based on spiritual teachings, atheism has never produced even
ONE successful state, let alone a civilisation lasting CENTURIES!

ATHEISM SUSTAINS NOTHING!!!! NOT EVEN A DECENT RATIONAL ARGUMENT!

And the proof of the pudding is that even atheist, for all their
hysterical shrieking.. choose to live in the majority religious
pluralist democracies, rather than the one remaining Atheist
state.. North Korea!
Post by Morton Lucifer
And the one point I agree with Chris lee, yes, Islam did
over time, enter it's own Dark Age, as all human organisations
can when they ossify, especially as their nations fell under
political corruption, Imperialism and Colonisation.
But here is the critical point, in each case, those great world
religions inspired and sustained great civilisations, through the
most difficult stages of human social, political, economic and
SPIRITUAL evolution.. and the current state of the Art; free,
democratic, MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies were those religious
majorities CHOOSE and INSTALL separation of Church and State
with SECULAR government, but guaranteing Freedom of Religion,
is the achievement of that long struggle..
.. and atheism contributed BUGGER ALL, because despite
a few exceptional individuals (Voltaire, Shaw..) EVERY
atheist state was a totalitarian shithole!! 8^o
Put simply, THERE WERE NO GREAT AND ENDURING ATHEIST
CIVILISATIONS which might have made a few mistakes
along the way as the religious ones did.
This is the Balance. This is the Balance. This is the Balance.
Atheists need to develop a balanced perspective, if they
are to be taken seriously and, working with the religions,
make a positive contribution to the evolution of our Global
Civilisation.
----------

# From: raven1 <***@nevermore.com>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism
# Subject: Re: Anyone seen Hysteria, Abu Baker Bashir and Kelsey
Bjarnyard? B^D
# Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:15:11 -0500
# Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
#
# There has never been a "Great, Enduring Atheist Civilization"
Don H
2009-08-11 22:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morton Lucifer
On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT), Budikka666
I finally got a chance to watch the first two parts of this series and
it's excellent. Dawkins does a terrific job.
At being a TV presenter with an atheist agenda, the brilliance was
Darwin's and he WAS NOT an Atheist!!!! B^p
From the way atheists carry on you would think that Atheists led
the evolution and science charge and religion opposed it. B^D
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Religion has led the scientific progress in civilization, just as it has
inspired the artistic, architectural, mathematical and musical output,
and atheism has played NO SIGNIFICANT ROLE!
Two of the most significant modern scientific developments serve to
illustrate this;
The Theory of Evolution was propounded by Charles Darwin, who not only
explicitly stated that he was NOT an atheist, but was a churchgoer! B^D
The other major scientific theory which blows Creationist fundies out of
the water is the Big Bang Theory. Again atheists had nothing to do with
the science, it is the work of Lemaitre, a Belgian Roman Catholic
priest, honorary prelate, professor of physics and astronomer at the
Catholic University of Leuven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
So, why is it that everytime atheists discuss science, they present
it as battle between Atheist scientists and Religious Creation
'Science'(sic) when the VAST MAJORITY of religious support and teach
Evolion, and religious have played a far greater role in CREATING
science than Atheists, who have never inspired a great or enduring
civilisation, which religious has done all through history.
We live in what the historians designated as Judeao-Christian
Civilisation, and which is more accurately seen as
Judeao-Christian-Islamic civilisation, and yet if you listen to
Atheists, who refuse to acknowledge the contributions of religion,
and NEVER provide an accurate or balanced view, you can only conclude
that they are either completely ignorant of History, or else they are
deliberately distorting it, as they do the respective roles of
atheistm and religion in Science. [See below for a summary of
contributions by individual believers, the major scientists in history,
responsible for the most significant discoveries! And this does not
include the greatest contribution of religion; inspiring and sustaining
the progressive CIVILISATIONS, in which these advances could take place,
Contrast that with 100% of Atheist states being tyrannies and a
balanced Ledger is obtained! B^]
He holds back no punches when addressing the conflicting, evidence-
free stories told by the creationists with the fact of evolution.
So the atheists interest in Evolution is not the science, but it's use
to promote their cause by their endless beating up on Creationism,
not the mainstream religious position, but the only one the atheists
feel able to tackle, because it's fundamentalism is as simplistic
as their own!
Religion DOES NOT EQUAL CREATIONISM.
Dawkins and the deceitful atheist movement he represents select
Creationism as an easy target (theists such as Shelby-Spong have already
done the demolition work on Creationism, decades ago. Dawkins merely
plagiarises his work, and pretends that ALL religious are defeated
if Creationism is! pfffft! )
How many times have atheist hypocrites claimed, falsely, that I am
claiming that ALL atheists are guilty of the crimes of the atheist
tyrannies. Once more for the record, the atheist regimes are
responsible for the terror torture and death of over 60,000,000
victims, not every modern atheist.
But MODERN atheists ARE GUILTY of
1. Hypocrisy, because it is THEY who use the illegitimate concept
of Collective Guilt and Collective Punishment. They continually
hold 'RELIGION' and ALL religious, to be responsible for the acts
of a tiny minority of religious.
2. Holocaust denial - pretending that the 60,000,000 dead in the USSR,
Maoist China, and Pol Pots Year Zero was not the work of ATHEIST
REGIMES.
The difference then between my historical criticism of atheist tyranny
and Atheist condemnation of religion based on selecting a few
unrepresentative incidents and holding all religions collectively
responsible for them is that I am discriminating, blaming only the
Specific atheist regimes for their crimes, while atheists are
indiscriminate: If 16 terrorists attack the WTC they simply blame
'theists' .. it is a vile practice of COLLECTIVE BLAME.
It is made worse, more hypocritical because EVERY atheist regime has
been a totalitarian tyranny, making it the NORM for atheist societies,
but every civilisation has been based on Spiritual Teachings, and only
most modern religious societies are democratic.
The evidence of this clear historical distinction between the typical
efficacy of religion in society and the universal failure of atheism
is the historical record, AND the atheists themselves, who all choose
to live in open democratic, tolerant, rights-based states such as the
USA, rather than totalitarian atheist shitholes like Nth Korea.
You can't pull any punches. Creationism is dishonest, insidious and
aimed at children.
Which is why atheists spend so much time on it.
Look, I understand that atheists who live in the USA, where
creation 'Science'(sic) is more active than in the the real world,
feel it is a significant threat, but it isn't.
Already, the largest Christian Church, the Catholics, teach EVOLUTION
IN THEIR SCHOOLS, So do Muslims, Jews, Bahai, Hindu's and Buddhists...
The Believer the American people elected President represents
the modern Majority Christian view (and on evolution, the majority
Muslim, Hindu, Bahai,Buddhist viw.. ets etc) so why do atheists
a) spend so much time debating Creationism and
b) deceitfully and dishonestly condemn ALL RELIGION when they
have, for the TRILLIONTH time, demonstrated what the VAST
MAJORITY of religious in the world ALREADY BELIEVE, that
Mankind EVOLVED and is still EVOLVING.
The answer to both questions reveals WHY atheism is such a tiny,
(0.7% in the USA, 2.3% worldwide) minority and, as studies show,
the most MISTRUSTED minority in America! 8^o
They attack Creationism because it is such An EASY TARGET.
You do not have to be a giant intellect to critique Creationism,
and as alt.atheism shows, they are severely lacking in the Giant
Intellect department.
But, what they lack in intellect they make up for in fanaticicism
and dogma, thus they are tempramentally suited to debating
Creationists! ;-)
It tries to destroy one of the cornerstones of modern science
It has failed utterly, get over it.
<skip uncontested science which has nothing to do with atheism
and is supported, taught and in most cases developed, by the
majority of modern religionists! eg Compare the budget, per capita
for science and development in the MAJORITY RELIGIOUS U.S.A. and that
in the only remaining ATHEIST regime, Nth Korea.
ie DESPITE the number of vocal creationists in the USA, with an
80% majority of religious, it has led the world in scientific
and technological development for decades!
Thus, what appears below is atheist PREJUDICE, repeated endlessly
without any proof, by many atheists, and refuted by the examples
above. It is an exercise in ATHEIST DOGMA, an unfounded BELIEF
based on unrepresentative, SELECTIVE argument by anecdotal
evidence, a FALLACY, it is profoundly UNSCIENTIFIC and irrational;
There is a war between knowledge and progress, and ignorance returning
to a religious dark age. Because creationists don't just reject
evolution but any science that contradicts their creation myths.
Creationists are not causing a return to the dark ages, they are in
retreat. The trend is in the opposite direction, the Religious Right
is in retreat, rational believers are in the ascendency.
Atheist hysteria arises from ignorance, and from their Tunnel Vision,
which focuses entirely on the unrepresentative Creationists and fundies,
and not upon the progressive religious majority.
Their distorted viewpoint is re-inforced by the fact that MAINSTREAM
BELIEVERS fregard the pathetically small numbers of Atheists as
INSIGNIFICANT and IRRLEVANT and hence do not present in forums like
alt.atheism and engage atheists in debate. Fundies do, becasue like
attracts like, and this re-enforces the atheist delusion
Just listen to ignorant idiots like Ben Stein and his interviewers
lying that science is responsible for all sorts of evils, therefore
eliminate science.
It sounds exactly like atheist arguments that 'religion is
responsible for all sorts of evils, therefore eliminate science.'
In both cases, while selective anecdotal evidence exists, it is
an unbalanced view, and fallacious.
More sound would be, "EVERY atheist state has been a tyranny,
'responsible for all sorts of evils'.. therefore.. " !!!
But I, and the democratic, pluralist MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies
we live in do NOT make such suggestions!!! Unlike fundie atheists
and fundie Christians we have a COMMITMENT to freedoms which both
a number of theist regimes, and ALL of the atheist regimes lack!
Atheists persistently misrepresent my views because they have
no rational response to what i actually say.
Just as banning science because of Hiroshima would be foolish,
so would banning religion because of the Inquisition.
In BOTH cases the positive contributions to human society are
IMMENSE and easily outweigh the abuses committed in the NAME of either.
With regard to atheism, this is not the case. EVERY atheist regime
has been a tyranny.
Despite this, there is no call to eliminate atheism! My goal has been,
and remains, to expose it's profound limitations, it's use as an anti-
theist tool for prejudice and hate, and to reform it in the social
Results 1 - 10 of about 313 for insubject:95 insubject:Theses
insubject:for insubject:Atheist insubject:Reform.
95 Theses for Atheist Reform: #30 Progressive Revelation - The ...
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alt ...
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Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #3 atheists despise free, open ...
alt.atheism - 96 posts - 27 authors - Last post: May 31
8^o atheism needs reform. it has become a haven of blind faith and dogma
morton
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Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #2 an obsessional yearning to ...
alt.atheism - 127 posts - 24 authors - Last post: May 30
i mentioned atheist claims about god, which like your's, presuppose god's
existence... thank you for assisting me to illustrate morton lucifer's
95 theses
, ...
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approve of.
... re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #47 atheist forgery # and
deception ...
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8^o even the ex-atheist chinese commo apparatchiks admit it: can
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Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared he was ...
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alt politics republicans uk politics misc aus religion aus politics alt ...
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8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
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Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #62 the atheists dilemma re: the ...
alt.atheism - 7 posts - 6 authors - Last post: May 28
b^d eventually, even with these atheist cretins, the penny drops, and
they domly
sense that unlike his own dull posts, i get a constant flow of responses
to ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/.../d/80056b6b9023bd00?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #61 "bertrand russell knew we ...
alt.atheism - 47 posts - 18 authors - Last post: Jun 15
alt ...
subject: re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared
he ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/.../d/a8c07a85c6eb385e?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #29 illogical and irrational ...
alt.atheism - 80 posts - 19 authors - Last post: Jun 7
satire alt
usenet kooks alt politics communism alt relighion bob larter believes
god ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/91a043f8f41b7c8b?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #289 atheists cannot debate real ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 28
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
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95 theses for atheist reform: #5 - atheists defend the atheist ...
alt.atheism - 231 posts - 44 authors - Last post: May 29
b^] suck it up, you atheist nutjobs!!!! at most it means it doesn't give
christians the undeserved privileges now that is a lie. in these atheist
tyrannies, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/f35c7147561b3b09?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #51: suicide and despair re: faith ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 5 authors - Last post: May 23
wolak, arthur j. p 104 # # in these nations, the governments viewed
atheism as
an # intrinsic part of communist ideology. strange thing is . ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/1e7594877aad8753?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Jun 13
morton lucifer wrote: 95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist
'standard of
proof'(sic) we have now seen numerous examples of the atheist (lack of
a) ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/792d01de6aa2b8b9?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #62 the atheists dilemma re: the ...
alt.atheism - 7 posts - 6 authors - Last post: May 28
b^d eventually, even with these atheist cretins, the penny drops, and
they domly
sense that unlike his own dull posts, i get a constant flow of responses
to ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/.../d/80056b6b9023bd00?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #61 "bertrand russell knew we ...
alt.atheism - 47 posts - 18 authors - Last post: Jun 15
alt ...
subject: re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared
he ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/.../d/a8c07a85c6eb385e?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #29 illogical and irrational ...
alt.atheism - 80 posts - 19 authors - Last post: Jun 7
satire alt
usenet kooks alt politics communism alt relighion bob larter believes
god ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/91a043f8f41b7c8b?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #289 atheists cannot debate real ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 28
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
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95 theses for atheist reform: #5 - atheists defend the atheist ...
alt.atheism - 231 posts - 44 authors - Last post: May 29
b^] suck it up, you atheist nutjobs!!!! at most it means it doesn't give
christians the undeserved privileges now that is a lie. in these atheist
tyrannies, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/f35c7147561b3b09?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #51: suicide and despair re: faith ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 5 authors - Last post: May 23
wolak, arthur j. p 104 # # in these nations, the governments viewed
atheism as
an # intrinsic part of communist ideology. strange thing is . ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/1e7594877aad8753?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Jun 13
morton lucifer wrote: 95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist
'standard of
proof'(sic) we have now seen numerous examples of the atheist (lack of
a) ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/792d01de6aa2b8b9?hl=en
You can't dismiss evolution, cosmology and other origins sciences
without eliminating the rest of science because they all use the same
scientific method.
Just as you can't dismiss religion, faith and Spiritual values,
Look at what happened to the atheist states which tried;
60,000,000 terrorised, tortured and murdered in just 7 decades in
the Union of Savage Slaughter and repression(USSR) Mao's Cultural
Devolution and Great Leap Backward and Pol Pot's Cambodian
genocide.
Remember, 100% of atheist states have been totalitarian tyrannies,
so atheists are on thin ice citing examples of theist tyranny, when
they are ignoring the vast majority of progressive theist states,
including the modern, democratic, rights-based MAJORITY RELIGIOUS
societies like Australia and the USA, which the ATHEISTS THEMSELVES
choose to live in.. rather than atheist Nth Korea!
So this argument is bogus and based on SELECTIVE examples and gross
ignorance of history;
Look what happened to the Islamic world when they replaced science
with religious ignorance almost a thousand years ago. It entered its
own religious dark ages from which it still hasn't emerged.
The European dark age lasted about 1200 years, from Rome's adoption of
Christianity to the enlightenment. My own feeling is that the church
was too busy trying to go after heretical sects to go after people
investigating how the world works. Even though they still managed to
execute those with a high profile, many kept their heads down and
managed to survive to continue their work. In England Henry VII
removing the church's econonomic and political power was also a major
contribution to this.
It seems plausible, because like all human and natural phenomena,
Spiritual teachings do go through natural cycles of birth, growth,
and decline, seasons.
But in the modern era historian have noted the global synergies which
earlier, tribal and nationalist viewpoints obscured.
We are all familiar with Christianity's debt to Judaism,
It is a PROGRESSIVE REVELATION.
Judaism was awaiting a Messiah, but missed his coming, and it was
the Christians who carried the God of Abraham and Moses into the West,
not their Jewish pre-decessors.
Initially Christianity spread because it was USEFUL (Societies adopt
useful new ideas, in science, technology, maths, music AND religioun,
because NEW perspectives and Understandings are always forming
even if the underlying scientific (or Religious) REALITY remains
unchanged, but only partially UNDERSTOOD) But in early human history,
forms of social and political organisation made progress SLOW
and the Feudal forms of social organisation steadily seeped into and
corrupted the Church, until it BECAME a POLITICAL not Spiritual entiy,
The Holy Roman Empire.
What is missed in the unbalanced atheist analysis is critical-
* There was no alternative, Atheism contributed nothing, All societies
were based on religion, all the Great and enduring CIVILIZATIONS
WERE founded on Spiritual Values.
So it's like blaming parents for being conservative, when no one
else couls, or would do the job, half as well.
* The Dark ages in Europe is only part of the story, Islamic
Civilisation was flowering with enormous advances in Science,
Mathematics, Medicine.
RELIGION REMAINED THE DRIVING FORCE FOR PROGRESS, once to take the
global perspective and abandon the SELECTIVE EXAMPLE fallacy of
the atheists! B^]
Where was atheism while Islam was developing Hospitals and
Surgical instruments, street lighting and Algebra?
Nowhere to be seen
And Islam injected this new ZeitGeist, all of ist inspirational
new discoveries (Plus the works of Classical Greece) into Europe
via Andalusia, in what is now modern Spain.
In Music the Lute (El Oud) began the Troubadour tradition, the
foundation of Western Music. In mathematics the development of
Markets could not have flourished using Roman numerals, it required
ARABIC NUMERALS (Actually,transmitted from the Hindu Civilisation ;-)
Harvey's work on the bloodstream is merely a transcription
of an Arab text, the Hospice, Surgical Instruments, even philosophy
and critical thought were all re-energised by the brilliant Islamic
Civilisation..
and we are all aware of what the Christian west did with it,
the Protestant Scots who were the foundation of Industrial
Revolution, All the Great theist scientist from Galileao to Newton
(and yes we know that Galileo was persecuted, get over it ;-)
And the one point I agree with Chris lee, yes, Islam did
over time, enter it's own Dark Age, as all human organisations
can when they ossify, especially as their nations fell under
political corruption, Imperialism and Colonisation.
But here is the critical point, in each case those great world
religions inspired and sustained great civilisations, through the
most difficult stages of human social, political, economic and
SPIRITUAL evolution.. and the current state of the Art; free,
democratic, MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies were those religious
majorities CHOOSE and INSTALL separation of Church and State
with SECULAR government, but guaranteing Freedom of Religion,
is the achievement of that long struggle..
.. and atheism contributed BUGGER ALL, because despite
a few exceptional individuals (Voltaire, Shaw..) EVERY
atheist state was a totalitarian shithole!! 8^o
Put simply, THERE WERE NO GREAT AND ENDURING ATHEIST
CIVILISATIONS which might have made a few mistakes
along the way as the religious ones did.
This is the Balance. This is the Balance. This is the Balance.
Atheists need to develop a balanced perspective, if they
are to be taken seriously and, working with the religions,
make a positive contribution to the evolution of our Global
Civilisation.
# That past scientists happened to have religious beliefs is due to the
society they were brought up in then. That they may have become
irreligious, but dared not mention it, is also understandable.
Modern scientists are probably mostly non-religious, but I just don't
know.
Certainly, Evolution Theory helped remove God as a causal factor, as
Occam's Razor decrees that if a simpler explanation can explain phenomena
(than postulating a deity) then the naturalistic replaces the
supernaturalistic. God dies off, by irrelevance.
I have somewhat more respect for the Creationist and/or Fundamentalist,
than the jesuitical sophistry of the RC Church which claims to accept both
the Bible and Evolution. If Evolution is true, then what of Adam and Eve?
allegorical? The Creationist and/or Fundamentalist is at least consistent
and honest - even at cost of outright rejection of Evolution, by ignoring
what is unpleasant to believe.
But Nature says: adapt, or perish; and maybe the RC Church, being more
adaptable than those who wholly reject Evolution, will survive, while others
fade away.
Morton Lucifer
2009-08-12 13:04:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morton Lucifer
Post by Morton Lucifer
On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT), Budikka666
I finally got a chance to watch the first two parts of this series and
it's excellent. Dawkins does a terrific job.
At being a TV presenter with an atheist agenda, the brilliance was
Darwin's and he WAS NOT an Atheist!!!! B^p
From the way atheists carry on you would think that Atheists led
the evolution and science charge and religion opposed it. B^D
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Religion has led the scientific progress in civilization, just as it has
inspired the artistic, architectural, mathematical and musical output,
and atheism has played NO SIGNIFICANT ROLE!
Two of the most significant modern scientific developments serve to
illustrate this;
The Theory of Evolution was propounded by Charles Darwin, who not only
explicitly stated that he was NOT an atheist, but was a churchgoer! B^D
The other major scientific theory which blows Creationist fundies out of
the water is the Big Bang Theory. Again atheists had nothing to do with
the science, it is the work of Lemaitre, a Belgian Roman Catholic
priest, honorary prelate, professor of physics and astronomer at the
Catholic University of Leuven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
So, why is it that everytime atheists discuss science, they present
it as battle between Atheist scientists and Religious Creation
'Science'(sic) when the VAST MAJORITY of religious support and teach
Evolion, and religious have played a far greater role in CREATING
science than Atheists, who have never inspired a great or enduring
civilisation, which religious has done all through history.
We live in what the historians designated as Judeao-Christian
Civilisation, and which is more accurately seen as
Judeao-Christian-Islamic civilisation, and yet if you listen to
Atheists, who refuse to acknowledge the contributions of religion,
and NEVER provide an accurate or balanced view, you can only conclude
that they are either completely ignorant of History, or else they are
deliberately distorting it, as they do the respective roles of
atheistm and religion in Science. [See below for a summary of
contributions by individual believers, the major scientists in history,
responsible for the most significant discoveries! And this does not
include the greatest contribution of religion; inspiring and sustaining
the progressive CIVILISATIONS, in which these advances could take place,
Contrast that with 100% of Atheist states being tyrannies and a
balanced Ledger is obtained! B^]
He holds back no punches when addressing the conflicting, evidence-
free stories told by the creationists with the fact of evolution.
So the atheists interest in Evolution is not the science, but it's use
to promote their cause by their endless beating up on Creationism,
not the mainstream religious position, but the only one the atheists
feel able to tackle, because it's fundamentalism is as simplistic
as their own!
Religion DOES NOT EQUAL CREATIONISM.
Dawkins and the deceitful atheist movement he represents select
Creationism as an easy target (theists such as Shelby-Spong have already
done the demolition work on Creationism, decades ago. Dawkins merely
plagiarises his work, and pretends that ALL religious are defeated
if Creationism is! pfffft! )
How many times have atheist hypocrites claimed, falsely, that I am
claiming that ALL atheists are guilty of the crimes of the atheist
tyrannies. Once more for the record, the atheist regimes are
responsible for the terror torture and death of over 60,000,000
victims, not every modern atheist.
But MODERN atheists ARE GUILTY of
1. Hypocrisy, because it is THEY who use the illegitimate concept
of Collective Guilt and Collective Punishment. They continually
hold 'RELIGION' and ALL religious, to be responsible for the acts
of a tiny minority of religious.
2. Holocaust denial - pretending that the 60,000,000 dead in the USSR,
Maoist China, and Pol Pots Year Zero was not the work of ATHEIST
REGIMES.
The difference then between my historical criticism of atheist tyranny
and Atheist condemnation of religion based on selecting a few
unrepresentative incidents and holding all religions collectively
responsible for them is that I am discriminating, blaming only the
Specific atheist regimes for their crimes, while atheists are
indiscriminate: If 16 terrorists attack the WTC they simply blame
'theists' .. it is a vile practice of COLLECTIVE BLAME.
It is made worse, more hypocritical because EVERY atheist regime has
been a totalitarian tyranny, making it the NORM for atheist societies,
but every civilisation has been based on Spiritual Teachings, and only
most modern religious societies are democratic.
The evidence of this clear historical distinction between the typical
efficacy of religion in society and the universal failure of atheism
is the historical record, AND the atheists themselves, who all choose
to live in open democratic, tolerant, rights-based states such as the
USA, rather than totalitarian atheist shitholes like Nth Korea.
You can't pull any punches. Creationism is dishonest, insidious and
aimed at children.
Which is why atheists spend so much time on it.
Look, I understand that atheists who live in the USA, where
creation 'Science'(sic) is more active than in the the real world,
feel it is a significant threat, but it isn't.
Already, the largest Christian Church, the Catholics, teach EVOLUTION
IN THEIR SCHOOLS, So do Muslims, Jews, Bahai, Hindu's and Buddhists...
The Believer the American people elected President represents
the modern Majority Christian view (and on evolution, the majority
Muslim, Hindu, Bahai,Buddhist viw.. ets etc) so why do atheists
a) spend so much time debating Creationism and
b) deceitfully and dishonestly condemn ALL RELIGION when they
have, for the TRILLIONTH time, demonstrated what the VAST
MAJORITY of religious in the world ALREADY BELIEVE, that
Mankind EVOLVED and is still EVOLVING.
The answer to both questions reveals WHY atheism is such a tiny,
(0.7% in the USA, 2.3% worldwide) minority and, as studies show,
the most MISTRUSTED minority in America! 8^o
They attack Creationism because it is such An EASY TARGET.
You do not have to be a giant intellect to critique Creationism,
and as alt.atheism shows, they are severely lacking in the Giant
Intellect department.
But, what they lack in intellect they make up for in fanaticicism
and dogma, thus they are tempramentally suited to debating
Creationists! ;-)
It tries to destroy one of the cornerstones of modern science
It has failed utterly, get over it.
<skip uncontested science which has nothing to do with atheism
and is supported, taught and in most cases developed, by the
majority of modern religionists! eg Compare the budget, per capita
for science and development in the MAJORITY RELIGIOUS U.S.A. and that
in the only remaining ATHEIST regime, Nth Korea.
ie DESPITE the number of vocal creationists in the USA, with an
80% majority of religious, it has led the world in scientific
and technological development for decades!
Thus, what appears below is atheist PREJUDICE, repeated endlessly
without any proof, by many atheists, and refuted by the examples
above. It is an exercise in ATHEIST DOGMA, an unfounded BELIEF
based on unrepresentative, SELECTIVE argument by anecdotal
evidence, a FALLACY, it is profoundly UNSCIENTIFIC and irrational;
There is a war between knowledge and progress, and ignorance returning
to a religious dark age. Because creationists don't just reject
evolution but any science that contradicts their creation myths.
Creationists are not causing a return to the dark ages, they are in
retreat. The trend is in the opposite direction, the Religious Right
is in retreat, rational believers are in the ascendency.
Atheist hysteria arises from ignorance, and from their Tunnel Vision,
which focuses entirely on the unrepresentative Creationists and fundies,
and not upon the progressive religious majority.
Their distorted viewpoint is re-inforced by the fact that MAINSTREAM
BELIEVERS fregard the pathetically small numbers of Atheists as
INSIGNIFICANT and IRRLEVANT and hence do not present in forums like
alt.atheism and engage atheists in debate. Fundies do, becasue like
attracts like, and this re-enforces the atheist delusion
Just listen to ignorant idiots like Ben Stein and his interviewers
lying that science is responsible for all sorts of evils, therefore
eliminate science.
It sounds exactly like atheist arguments that 'religion is
responsible for all sorts of evils, therefore eliminate science.'
In both cases, while selective anecdotal evidence exists, it is
an unbalanced view, and fallacious.
More sound would be, "EVERY atheist state has been a tyranny,
'responsible for all sorts of evils'.. therefore.. " !!!
But I, and the democratic, pluralist MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies
we live in do NOT make such suggestions!!! Unlike fundie atheists
and fundie Christians we have a COMMITMENT to freedoms which both
a number of theist regimes, and ALL of the atheist regimes lack!
Atheists persistently misrepresent my views because they have
no rational response to what i actually say.
Just as banning science because of Hiroshima would be foolish,
so would banning religion because of the Inquisition.
In BOTH cases the positive contributions to human society are
IMMENSE and easily outweigh the abuses committed in the NAME of either.
With regard to atheism, this is not the case. EVERY atheist regime
has been a tyranny.
Despite this, there is no call to eliminate atheism! My goal has been,
and remains, to expose it's profound limitations, it's use as an anti-
theist tool for prejudice and hate, and to reform it in the social
Results 1 - 10 of about 313 for insubject:95 insubject:Theses
insubject:for insubject:Atheist insubject:Reform.
95 Theses for Atheist Reform: #30 Progressive Revelation - The ...
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philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
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Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #3 atheists despise free, open ...
alt.atheism - 96 posts - 27 authors - Last post: May 31
8^o atheism needs reform. it has become a haven of blind faith and dogma
morton
lucifer needs to nail his 95 theses to the door of dawkin's house.. or ...
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Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #2 an obsessional yearning to ...
alt.atheism - 127 posts - 24 authors - Last post: May 30
i mentioned atheist claims about god, which like your's, presuppose god's
existence... thank you for assisting me to illustrate morton lucifer's
95 theses
, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/26a7ff07/t/.../d/487c49a6f0e09656?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #57 the atheist aversion to truth ...
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not in the union of soviet states of america the atheist obviously
approve of.
... re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #47 atheist forgery # and
deception ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/dfd7feff/t/.../d/337b412d1f174b6f?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #75 atheists pretend religion to ...
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alt religion christian alt religion christianity alt politics democrats
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95 theses for atheist reform: # 85 atheists join with duke and al ...
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95 theses for atheist reform: #91 atheists destroy and ignore the ...
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8^o even the ex-atheist chinese commo apparatchiks admit it: can
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the semi colon at the end of the thesis stated above? ...
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Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared he was ...
alt.atheism - 29 posts - 11 authors - Last post: Jun 14
democrats
alt politics republicans uk politics misc aus religion aus politics alt
...
Post by Morton Lucifer
http://groups.google.com.au/g/e717fef0/t/.../d/533dd396a4060190?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #55 atheism relies on propaganda and ...
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atheism alt
religion talk atheism aus religion alt religion christian alt religion ...
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95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #62 the atheists dilemma re: the ...
alt.atheism - 7 posts - 6 authors - Last post: May 28
b^d eventually, even with these atheist cretins, the penny drops, and
they domly
sense that unlike his own dull posts, i get a constant flow of responses
to ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/.../d/80056b6b9023bd00?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #61 "bertrand russell knew we ...
alt.atheism - 47 posts - 18 authors - Last post: Jun 15
alt ...
subject: re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared
he ...
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95 theses for atheist reform: #29 illogical and irrational ...
alt.atheism - 80 posts - 19 authors - Last post: Jun 7
satire alt
usenet kooks alt politics communism alt relighion bob larter believes
god ...
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95 theses for atheist reform: #289 atheists cannot debate real ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 28
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
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95 theses for atheist reform: #5 - atheists defend the atheist ...
alt.atheism - 231 posts - 44 authors - Last post: May 29
b^] suck it up, you atheist nutjobs!!!! at most it means it doesn't give
christians the undeserved privileges now that is a lie. in these atheist
tyrannies, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/f35c7147561b3b09?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #51: suicide and despair re: faith ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 5 authors - Last post: May 23
wolak, arthur j. p 104 # # in these nations, the governments viewed
atheism as
an # intrinsic part of communist ideology. strange thing is . ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/1e7594877aad8753?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Jun 13
morton lucifer wrote: 95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist
'standard of
proof'(sic) we have now seen numerous examples of the atheist (lack of
a) ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/792d01de6aa2b8b9?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #62 the atheists dilemma re: the ...
alt.atheism - 7 posts - 6 authors - Last post: May 28
b^d eventually, even with these atheist cretins, the penny drops, and
they domly
sense that unlike his own dull posts, i get a constant flow of responses
to ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/.../d/80056b6b9023bd00?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #61 "bertrand russell knew we ...
alt.atheism - 47 posts - 18 authors - Last post: Jun 15
alt ...
subject: re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared
he ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/.../d/a8c07a85c6eb385e?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #29 illogical and irrational ...
alt.atheism - 80 posts - 19 authors - Last post: Jun 7
satire alt
usenet kooks alt politics communism alt relighion bob larter believes
god ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/91a043f8f41b7c8b?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #289 atheists cannot debate real ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 28
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
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95 theses for atheist reform: #5 - atheists defend the atheist ...
alt.atheism - 231 posts - 44 authors - Last post: May 29
b^] suck it up, you atheist nutjobs!!!! at most it means it doesn't give
christians the undeserved privileges now that is a lie. in these atheist
tyrannies, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/f35c7147561b3b09?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #51: suicide and despair re: faith ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 5 authors - Last post: May 23
wolak, arthur j. p 104 # # in these nations, the governments viewed
atheism as
an # intrinsic part of communist ideology. strange thing is . ...
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95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Jun 13
morton lucifer wrote: 95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist
'standard of
proof'(sic) we have now seen numerous examples of the atheist (lack of
a) ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/792d01de6aa2b8b9?hl=en
You can't dismiss evolution, cosmology and other origins sciences
without eliminating the rest of science because they all use the same
scientific method.
Just as you can't dismiss religion, faith and Spiritual values,
Look at what happened to the atheist states which tried;
60,000,000 terrorised, tortured and murdered in just 7 decades in
the Union of Savage Slaughter and repression(USSR) Mao's Cultural
Devolution and Great Leap Backward and Pol Pot's Cambodian
genocide.
Remember, 100% of atheist states have been totalitarian tyrannies,
so atheists are on thin ice citing examples of theist tyranny, when
they are ignoring the vast majority of progressive theist states,
including the modern, democratic, rights-based MAJORITY RELIGIOUS
societies like Australia and the USA, which the ATHEISTS THEMSELVES
choose to live in.. rather than atheist Nth Korea!
So this argument is bogus and based on SELECTIVE examples and gross
ignorance of history;
Look what happened to the Islamic world when they replaced science
with religious ignorance almost a thousand years ago. It entered its
own religious dark ages from which it still hasn't emerged.
The European dark age lasted about 1200 years, from Rome's adoption of
Christianity to the enlightenment. My own feeling is that the church
was too busy trying to go after heretical sects to go after people
investigating how the world works. Even though they still managed to
execute those with a high profile, many kept their heads down and
managed to survive to continue their work. In England Henry VII
removing the church's econonomic and political power was also a major
contribution to this.
It seems plausible, because like all human and natural phenomena,
Spiritual teachings do go through natural cycles of birth, growth,
and decline, seasons.
But in the modern era historian have noted the global synergies which
earlier, tribal and nationalist viewpoints obscured.
We are all familiar with Christianity's debt to Judaism,
It is a PROGRESSIVE REVELATION.
Judaism was awaiting a Messiah, but missed his coming, and it was
the Christians who carried the God of Abraham and Moses into the West,
not their Jewish pre-decessors.
Initially Christianity spread because it was USEFUL (Societies adopt
useful new ideas, in science, technology, maths, music AND religioun,
because NEW perspectives and Understandings are always forming
even if the underlying scientific (or Religious) REALITY remains
unchanged, but only partially UNDERSTOOD) But in early human history,
forms of social and political organisation made progress SLOW
and the Feudal forms of social organisation steadily seeped into and
corrupted the Church, until it BECAME a POLITICAL not Spiritual entiy,
The Holy Roman Empire.
What is missed in the unbalanced atheist analysis is critical-
* There was no alternative, Atheism contributed nothing, All societies
were based on religion, all the Great and enduring CIVILIZATIONS
WERE founded on Spiritual Values.
So it's like blaming parents for being conservative, when no one
else couls, or would do the job, half as well.
* The Dark ages in Europe is only part of the story, Islamic
Civilisation was flowering with enormous advances in Science,
Mathematics, Medicine.
RELIGION REMAINED THE DRIVING FORCE FOR PROGRESS, once to take the
global perspective and abandon the SELECTIVE EXAMPLE fallacy of
the atheists! B^]
Where was atheism while Islam was developing Hospitals and
Surgical instruments, street lighting and Algebra?
Nowhere to be seen
And Islam injected this new ZeitGeist, all of ist inspirational
new discoveries (Plus the works of Classical Greece) into Europe
via Andalusia, in what is now modern Spain.
In Music the Lute (El Oud) began the Troubadour tradition, the
foundation of Western Music. In mathematics the development of
Markets could not have flourished using Roman numerals, it required
ARABIC NUMERALS (Actually,transmitted from the Hindu Civilisation ;-)
Harvey's work on the bloodstream is merely a transcription
of an Arab text, the Hospice, Surgical Instruments, even philosophy
and critical thought were all re-energised by the brilliant Islamic
Civilisation..
and we are all aware of what the Christian west did with it,
the Protestant Scots who were the foundation of Industrial
Revolution, All the Great theist scientist from Galileao to Newton
(and yes we know that Galileo was persecuted, get over it ;-)
And the one point I agree with Chris lee, yes, Islam did
over time, enter it's own Dark Age, as all human organisations
can when they ossify, especially as their nations fell under
political corruption, Imperialism and Colonisation.
But here is the critical point, in each case those great world
religions inspired and sustained great civilisations, through the
most difficult stages of human social, political, economic and
SPIRITUAL evolution.. and the current state of the Art; free,
democratic, MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies were those religious
majorities CHOOSE and INSTALL separation of Church and State
with SECULAR government, but guaranteing Freedom of Religion,
is the achievement of that long struggle..
.. and atheism contributed BUGGER ALL, because despite
a few exceptional individuals (Voltaire, Shaw..) EVERY
atheist state was a totalitarian shithole!! 8^o
Put simply, THERE WERE NO GREAT AND ENDURING ATHEIST
CIVILISATIONS which might have made a few mistakes
along the way as the religious ones did.
This is the Balance. This is the Balance. This is the Balance.
Atheists need to develop a balanced perspective, if they
are to be taken seriously and, working with the religions,
make a positive contribution to the evolution of our Global
Civilisation.
# That past scientists happened to have religious beliefs is due to the
society they were brought up in then.
So it's true that Religion is no impediment to Science, and in fact
it produced all those great scientists throughout History..

JUST AS EINSTEIN SAID:


"..science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with
the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling,
however, springs from the sphere of Religion... science without religion
is lame, religion without science is blind."

- Albert Einstein "Ideas and Opinions" 1954


The Greatness of God is something we cannot understand even though we
are aware of it

- Rene Descarte 1596-1650 mathematician and philosopher

The glory and greatness of the Almighty God are marvellously discerned
in all His works and divinely read in the open book of heaven

- Galileo Galilei 1564-1642

I see everywhere the inevitable expression of the infinite in the world

- Louis Pasteur 1822-95

As a blind man has no idea of colours, so have we no idea of the manner
by which the All-Wise God perceives and understands all things.

- Sir Isaac Newton 1642-1727

The scientific picture of the real world around me is very
deficient...Science cannot tell us why music delights us, of why and how
an old song can move us to tears.... Science is reticent too when it is
a question of the great Unity... of which we all somehow form a part, to
which we belong. The most popular name for it in our time is God.

- Erwin Schroedinger 1933 Nobel prize in Physics
"My view of the World" 1918

There can never be any real opposition between religion and science.
Every serious and reflective person realizes, I think, that the
religious elements in his nature must be recognized and cultivated if
all the powers of the human soul are to act together in perfect balance
and harmony.

- Max Planck winner of the 1918 Nobel prize in Physics
"Where is Science Going" 1918

"Something unknown is doing we don't know what"
-Sir Arthur Eddington

Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can
soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not
possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the
wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of
superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone
he would make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of
materialism.

- 'Abdu'l - Baha "Paris Talks" 1911

Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of
the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as
well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces
worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the
facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost
beyond question." (2)

George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in
the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the
complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use
the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological
status of the word." (3)

Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it
quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be
some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the
explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something
instead of nothing." (6)

John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards,
a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the
Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could
never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances
indicate the universe was created for man to live in." (7)

George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the
thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather,
Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without
intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence
of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially
crafted the cosmos for our benefit?" (8)

Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or
Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present
state of scientific theory." (9)

Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique
event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very
delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to
permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say
'supernatural') plan." (10)

Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe
has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance." (11)

Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty
of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very
tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am
sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it." (12)

Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by
our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the
divine." (13)

Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has
lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad
dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to
conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he
is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for
centuries." (14)

Stephen Hawking (British astrophysicist): "Then we shall… be able to
take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and
the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the
ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of
God." (15)

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my
career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced
atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be
writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-
Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are
straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand
them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable
logic of my own special branch of physics." (16) Note: Tipler since
has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, The
Physics Of Christianity.

Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): "We know that nature is
described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created
it."(17)

Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the
existence of God – the design argument of Paley – updated and
refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie
evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that
requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one....
Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the
teleological or design argument." (18)

Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe,
in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but
our picture is incomplete without Him [God]." (19)

Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no
question but that a God will always be needed." (20)

Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): "This type of universe,
however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial
conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'." (21)

Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981
Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the
marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how.
The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God
in the universe and in my own life." (22)

Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and
director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the
University of Georgia): "The significance and joy in my science comes
in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to
myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little
corner of God's plan." (23)



Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to
understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a
superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to
comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science." (24)

Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in
Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I
can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100
billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed
and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would
contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that
the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out
of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to
that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may
extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be
entirely unique." (25)


"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a
little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the
ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that
someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It
does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the
child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books - a
mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly
suspects." - Albert Einstein

"The statistical probability that organic structures and the most
precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be
generated by accident, is zero."- Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist)
Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry
I. Prigogine, N. Gregair, A. Babbyabtz, Physics Today 25, pp. 23-28

"The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a
knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge,
and would be total chaos if any of the natural 'constants' were off
even slightly. You see," Davies adds, "even if you dismiss man as a
chance happening, the fact remains that the universe seems
unreasonably suited to the existence of life -- almost contrived --
you might say a 'put-up job'."- Dr. Paul Davies
(noted author and Professor of Theoretical Physics at Adelaide
University)


Just a few believers who exceeded the intellectual output of this
ignorant atheist fuckwit and his cronies in alt.atheism;

Sir Francis Bacon - established the scientific method of inquiry based
on experimentation and inductive reasoning.

Nicolaus Copernicus Catholic canon who introduced a heliocentric world view.

William Turner the "father of English botany"

John Napier Scottish mathematician known for inventing logarithms,
Napier's bones, and being the popularizer of the use of decimals.

Johannes Kepler His model of the cosmos based on nesting Platonic solids
was explicitly driven by religious ideas; his later and most famous
scientific contribution, the Kepler's laws of planetary motion, was
based on empirical data that he obtained from Tycho Brahe's meticulous
astronomical observations,

Galileo Galilei

René Descartes one of the key thinkers of the Scientific Revolution in
the Western World. honoured by having the Cartesian coordinate system
used in plane geometry and algebra named after him. He did important
work on invariants and geometry. His Meditations on First Philosophy
partially concerns theology and he was devoted to reconciling his ideas
with the dogmas of Catholic Faith to which he was loyal.

Blaise Pascal well-known for Pascal's law (physics), Pascal's theorem
(math), and Pascal's Wager (theology).

Nicolas Steno a pioneer in both anatomy and geology

Robert Boyle Scientist and theologian who argued that the study of
science could improve glorification of God.

John Wallis As a mathematician he wrote Arithmetica Infinitorumis,
introduced the term Continued fraction, worked on cryptography, helped
develop calculus, and is further known for the Wallis product.


Gottfried Leibniz A polymath who worked on determinants, a calculating
machine

Isaac Newton (He is regarded as one of the greatest scientists and
mathematicians in history.

Thomas Bayes Bayes' theorem. Fellow of the Royal Society

Firmin Abauzit A physicist and theologian.

Carolus Linnaeus father of modern taxonomy, contributions to ecology.

Leonhard Euler mathematician and physicist,

Maria Gaetana Agnesi mathematician

Isaac Milner Lucasian Professor of Mathematics
Michael Faraday

Charles Babbage

Gregor Mendel "father of modern genetics"

Asa Gray - Gray's Manual remains a pivotal work in botany.

Louis Pasteur Inventor of the pasteurization method, a french chemist
and microbiologist. He also solved the mysteries of rabies, anthrax,
chicken cholera, and silkworm diseases, and contributed to the
development of the first vaccines.


Lord Kelvin Thermodynamics. winner of the Copley Medal and the Royal Medal,

Pierre Duhem Thermodynamic potentials

Dmitri Egorov mathematician - differential geometry

John Ambrose Flemingthe Right-hand rule and work on vacuum tubes,
Fleming valve. the Hughes Medal.

Max Planck founder of Quantum mechanics (1918 Nobel Prize in Physics

Edward Arthur Milne astrophysicist and mathematician proposed the Milne
model and had a Moon crater named for him. Gold Medal of the Royal
Astronomical Society,

Arthur Compton Nobel Prize in Physics.

Georges Lemaître proposed the Big Bang theory. Roman Catholic priest

Sir Robert Boyd pioneer in British space science

von Weizsäcker nuclear physicist Bethe-Weizsäcker formula.

Charles Hard Townes 1964 Nobel Prize in Physics 1966 wrote The
Convergence of Science and Religion.

Freeman Dyson the Lorentz Medal, the Max Planck Medal, and the Lewis
Thomas Prize.

John T. Houghtonco-chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate
Change gold medal from the Royal Astronomical Society.

Micha? Heller mathematical physicist relativistic physics and
Noncommutative geometry.

Eric PriestSolar Magnetohydrodynamics , won the George Ellery Hale Prize

Francis Collins director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute.

John D. Barrow English cosmologist implications of the Anthropic principle.

Denis Alexander Director of the Faraday Institute and author of
Rebuilding the Matrix - Science and Faith in the 21st Century.

Christopher IshamTheoretical physicist who developed HPO formalism.

Martin NowakEvolutionary biologist and mathematician best known for
evolutionary dynamics.


And that's just a partial list of Western scientists who were believers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists
Morton Lucifer
2009-08-12 21:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morton Lucifer
Post by Morton Lucifer
Post by Morton Lucifer
On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT), Budikka666
I finally got a chance to watch the first two parts of this series and
it's excellent. Dawkins does a terrific job.
At being a TV presenter with an atheist agenda, the brilliance was
Darwin's and he WAS NOT an Atheist!!!! B^p
From the way atheists carry on you would think that Atheists led
the evolution and science charge and religion opposed it. B^D
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Religion has led the scientific progress in civilization, just as it has
inspired the artistic, architectural, mathematical and musical output,
and atheism has played NO SIGNIFICANT ROLE!
Two of the most significant modern scientific developments serve to
illustrate this;
The Theory of Evolution was propounded by Charles Darwin, who not only
explicitly stated that he was NOT an atheist, but was a churchgoer! B^D
The other major scientific theory which blows Creationist fundies out of
the water is the Big Bang Theory. Again atheists had nothing to do with
the science, it is the work of Lemaitre, a Belgian Roman Catholic
priest, honorary prelate, professor of physics and astronomer at the
Catholic University of Leuven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
So, why is it that everytime atheists discuss science, they present
it as battle between Atheist scientists and Religious Creation
'Science'(sic) when the VAST MAJORITY of religious support and teach
Evolion, and religious have played a far greater role in CREATING
science than Atheists, who have never inspired a great or enduring
civilisation, which religious has done all through history.
We live in what the historians designated as Judeao-Christian
Civilisation, and which is more accurately seen as
Judeao-Christian-Islamic civilisation, and yet if you listen to
Atheists, who refuse to acknowledge the contributions of religion,
and NEVER provide an accurate or balanced view, you can only conclude
that they are either completely ignorant of History, or else they are
deliberately distorting it, as they do the respective roles of
atheistm and religion in Science. [See below for a summary of
contributions by individual believers, the major scientists in history,
responsible for the most significant discoveries! And this does not
include the greatest contribution of religion; inspiring and sustaining
the progressive CIVILISATIONS, in which these advances could take place,
Contrast that with 100% of Atheist states being tyrannies and a
balanced Ledger is obtained! B^]
He holds back no punches when addressing the conflicting, evidence-
free stories told by the creationists with the fact of evolution.
So the atheists interest in Evolution is not the science, but it's use
to promote their cause by their endless beating up on Creationism,
not the mainstream religious position, but the only one the atheists
feel able to tackle, because it's fundamentalism is as simplistic
as their own!
Religion DOES NOT EQUAL CREATIONISM.
Dawkins and the deceitful atheist movement he represents select
Creationism as an easy target (theists such as Shelby-Spong have already
done the demolition work on Creationism, decades ago. Dawkins merely
plagiarises his work, and pretends that ALL religious are defeated
if Creationism is! pfffft! )
How many times have atheist hypocrites claimed, falsely, that I am
claiming that ALL atheists are guilty of the crimes of the atheist
tyrannies. Once more for the record, the atheist regimes are
responsible for the terror torture and death of over 60,000,000
victims, not every modern atheist.
But MODERN atheists ARE GUILTY of
1. Hypocrisy, because it is THEY who use the illegitimate concept
of Collective Guilt and Collective Punishment. They continually
hold 'RELIGION' and ALL religious, to be responsible for the acts
of a tiny minority of religious.
2. Holocaust denial - pretending that the 60,000,000 dead in the USSR,
Maoist China, and Pol Pots Year Zero was not the work of ATHEIST
REGIMES.
The difference then between my historical criticism of atheist tyranny
and Atheist condemnation of religion based on selecting a few
unrepresentative incidents and holding all religions collectively
responsible for them is that I am discriminating, blaming only the
Specific atheist regimes for their crimes, while atheists are
indiscriminate: If 16 terrorists attack the WTC they simply blame
'theists' .. it is a vile practice of COLLECTIVE BLAME.
It is made worse, more hypocritical because EVERY atheist regime has
been a totalitarian tyranny, making it the NORM for atheist societies,
but every civilisation has been based on Spiritual Teachings, and only
most modern religious societies are democratic.
The evidence of this clear historical distinction between the typical
efficacy of religion in society and the universal failure of atheism
is the historical record, AND the atheists themselves, who all choose
to live in open democratic, tolerant, rights-based states such as the
USA, rather than totalitarian atheist shitholes like Nth Korea.
You can't pull any punches. Creationism is dishonest, insidious and
aimed at children.
Which is why atheists spend so much time on it.
Look, I understand that atheists who live in the USA, where
creation 'Science'(sic) is more active than in the the real world,
feel it is a significant threat, but it isn't.
Already, the largest Christian Church, the Catholics, teach EVOLUTION
IN THEIR SCHOOLS, So do Muslims, Jews, Bahai, Hindu's and Buddhists...
The Believer the American people elected President represents
the modern Majority Christian view (and on evolution, the majority
Muslim, Hindu, Bahai,Buddhist viw.. ets etc) so why do atheists
a) spend so much time debating Creationism and
b) deceitfully and dishonestly condemn ALL RELIGION when they
have, for the TRILLIONTH time, demonstrated what the VAST
MAJORITY of religious in the world ALREADY BELIEVE, that
Mankind EVOLVED and is still EVOLVING.
The answer to both questions reveals WHY atheism is such a tiny,
(0.7% in the USA, 2.3% worldwide) minority and, as studies show,
the most MISTRUSTED minority in America! 8^o
They attack Creationism because it is such An EASY TARGET.
You do not have to be a giant intellect to critique Creationism,
and as alt.atheism shows, they are severely lacking in the Giant
Intellect department.
But, what they lack in intellect they make up for in fanaticicism
and dogma, thus they are tempramentally suited to debating
Creationists! ;-)
It tries to destroy one of the cornerstones of modern science
It has failed utterly, get over it.
<skip uncontested science which has nothing to do with atheism
and is supported, taught and in most cases developed, by the
majority of modern religionists! eg Compare the budget, per capita
for science and development in the MAJORITY RELIGIOUS U.S.A. and that
in the only remaining ATHEIST regime, Nth Korea.
ie DESPITE the number of vocal creationists in the USA, with an
80% majority of religious, it has led the world in scientific
and technological development for decades!
Thus, what appears below is atheist PREJUDICE, repeated endlessly
without any proof, by many atheists, and refuted by the examples
above. It is an exercise in ATHEIST DOGMA, an unfounded BELIEF
based on unrepresentative, SELECTIVE argument by anecdotal
evidence, a FALLACY, it is profoundly UNSCIENTIFIC and irrational;
There is a war between knowledge and progress, and ignorance returning
to a religious dark age. Because creationists don't just reject
evolution but any science that contradicts their creation myths.
Creationists are not causing a return to the dark ages, they are in
retreat. The trend is in the opposite direction, the Religious Right
is in retreat, rational believers are in the ascendency.
Atheist hysteria arises from ignorance, and from their Tunnel Vision,
which focuses entirely on the unrepresentative Creationists and fundies,
and not upon the progressive religious majority.
Their distorted viewpoint is re-inforced by the fact that MAINSTREAM
BELIEVERS fregard the pathetically small numbers of Atheists as
INSIGNIFICANT and IRRLEVANT and hence do not present in forums like
alt.atheism and engage atheists in debate. Fundies do, becasue like
attracts like, and this re-enforces the atheist delusion
Just listen to ignorant idiots like Ben Stein and his interviewers
lying that science is responsible for all sorts of evils, therefore
eliminate science.
It sounds exactly like atheist arguments that 'religion is
responsible for all sorts of evils, therefore eliminate science.'
In both cases, while selective anecdotal evidence exists, it is
an unbalanced view, and fallacious.
More sound would be, "EVERY atheist state has been a tyranny,
'responsible for all sorts of evils'.. therefore.. " !!!
But I, and the democratic, pluralist MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies
we live in do NOT make such suggestions!!! Unlike fundie atheists
and fundie Christians we have a COMMITMENT to freedoms which both
a number of theist regimes, and ALL of the atheist regimes lack!
Atheists persistently misrepresent my views because they have
no rational response to what i actually say.
Just as banning science because of Hiroshima would be foolish,
so would banning religion because of the Inquisition.
In BOTH cases the positive contributions to human society are
IMMENSE and easily outweigh the abuses committed in the NAME of either.
With regard to atheism, this is not the case. EVERY atheist regime
has been a tyranny.
Despite this, there is no call to eliminate atheism! My goal has been,
and remains, to expose it's profound limitations, it's use as an anti-
theist tool for prejudice and hate, and to reform it in the social
Results 1 - 10 of about 313 for insubject:95 insubject:Theses
insubject:for insubject:Atheist insubject:Reform.
95 Theses for Atheist Reform: #30 Progressive Revelation - The ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 5 authors - Last post: Jun 28
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/dc5bfbbbab19f62f/.../a9e28feca7030ffa?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #3 atheists despise free, open ...
alt.atheism - 96 posts - 27 authors - Last post: May 31
8^o atheism needs reform. it has become a haven of blind faith and dogma
morton
lucifer needs to nail his 95 theses to the door of dawkin's house.. or ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/a47ac57f8178e574/.../e2104570cf1f39ce?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #2 an obsessional yearning to ...
alt.atheism - 127 posts - 24 authors - Last post: May 30
i mentioned atheist claims about god, which like your's, presuppose god's
existence... thank you for assisting me to illustrate morton lucifer's
95 theses
, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/26a7ff07/t/.../d/487c49a6f0e09656?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #57 the atheist aversion to truth ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 3 authors - Last post: Jun 5
not in the union of soviet states of america the atheist obviously
approve of.
... re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #47 atheist forgery # and
deception ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/dfd7feff/t/.../d/337b412d1f174b6f?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #75 atheists pretend religion to ...
alt.politics.republicans - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 2
religion
alt religion christian alt religion christianity alt politics democrats
uk ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/4ac7feeb/t/.../d/3838000ec78881b1?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: # 85 atheists join with duke and al ...
alt.atheism - 71 posts - 17 authors - Last post: Jun 5
politics
republicans alt poltiics democrats uk politics misc aus politics aus ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/8de2f4f1309df29?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #91 atheists destroy and ignore the ...
alt.philosophy - 10 posts - 3 authors - Last post: Jun 4
8^o even the ex-atheist chinese commo apparatchiks admit it: can
everyone see
the semi colon at the end of the thesis stated above? ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/ef6a0ae442a117b/.../1ccc01054fcc68f1?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared he was ...
alt.atheism - 29 posts - 11 authors - Last post: Jun 14
democrats
alt politics republicans uk politics misc aus religion aus politics alt
...
Post by Morton Lucifer
http://groups.google.com.au/g/e717fef0/t/.../d/533dd396a4060190?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #55 atheism relies on propaganda and ...
alt.usenet.kooks - 1 post - 1 author - Last post: May 24
atheism alt
religion talk atheism aus religion alt religion christian alt religion ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/8587fef0/t/.../d/54b38264281fc7bb?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #62 the atheists dilemma re: the ...
alt.atheism - 7 posts - 6 authors - Last post: May 28
b^d eventually, even with these atheist cretins, the penny drops, and
they domly
sense that unlike his own dull posts, i get a constant flow of responses
to ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/.../d/80056b6b9023bd00?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #61 "bertrand russell knew we ...
alt.atheism - 47 posts - 18 authors - Last post: Jun 15
alt ...
subject: re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared
he ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/.../d/a8c07a85c6eb385e?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #29 illogical and irrational ...
alt.atheism - 80 posts - 19 authors - Last post: Jun 7
satire alt
usenet kooks alt politics communism alt relighion bob larter believes
god ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/91a043f8f41b7c8b?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #289 atheists cannot debate real ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 28
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/4c703e95d6ebd86a?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #5 - atheists defend the atheist ...
alt.atheism - 231 posts - 44 authors - Last post: May 29
b^] suck it up, you atheist nutjobs!!!! at most it means it doesn't give
christians the undeserved privileges now that is a lie. in these atheist
tyrannies, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/f35c7147561b3b09?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #51: suicide and despair re: faith ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 5 authors - Last post: May 23
wolak, arthur j. p 104 # # in these nations, the governments viewed
atheism as
an # intrinsic part of communist ideology. strange thing is . ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/1e7594877aad8753?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Jun 13
morton lucifer wrote: 95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist
'standard of
proof'(sic) we have now seen numerous examples of the atheist (lack of
a) ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/792d01de6aa2b8b9?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #71 atheists propose soviet ...
alt.atheism - 3 posts - 1 author - Last post: May 25
8^o can you believe that in the modern(sic) era we have these atheist
barbarians
proposing to tear up human rights, again; you can argue, of course that
all ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/d8a7fefc/t/1ca1acf3b6e26847/.../136a0f35efb7fe00?...
Post by Morton Lucifer
95 theses for atheist reform: #62 the atheists dilemma re: the ...
alt.atheism - 7 posts - 6 authors - Last post: May 28
b^d eventually, even with these atheist cretins, the penny drops, and
they domly
sense that unlike his own dull posts, i get a constant flow of responses
to ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/2cc7feef/t/.../d/80056b6b9023bd00?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #61 "bertrand russell knew we ...
alt.atheism - 47 posts - 18 authors - Last post: Jun 15
alt ...
subject: re: 95 theses for atheist reform: #7 bertrand russell declared
he ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/17b7feec/t/.../d/a8c07a85c6eb385e?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #29 illogical and irrational ...
alt.atheism - 80 posts - 19 authors - Last post: Jun 7
satire alt
usenet kooks alt politics communism alt relighion bob larter believes
god ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/91a043f8f41b7c8b?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #289 atheists cannot debate real ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: Jun 28
philosophy alt politics republicans alt politics democrats aus politics
alt ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/4c703e95d6ebd86a?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #5 - atheists defend the atheist ...
alt.atheism - 231 posts - 44 authors - Last post: May 29
b^] suck it up, you atheist nutjobs!!!! at most it means it doesn't give
christians the undeserved privileges now that is a lie. in these atheist
tyrannies, ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/f35c7147561b3b09?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #51: suicide and despair re: faith ...
alt.atheism - 5 posts - 5 authors - Last post: May 23
wolak, arthur j. p 104 # # in these nations, the governments viewed
atheism as
an # intrinsic part of communist ideology. strange thing is . ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/1e7594877aad8753?hl=en
95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist 'standard of ...
alt.atheism - 10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Jun 13
morton lucifer wrote: 95 theses for atheist reform: #58 the atheist
'standard of
proof'(sic) we have now seen numerous examples of the atheist (lack of
a) ...
http://groups.google.com.au/g/b967fee9/t/.../d/792d01de6aa2b8b9?hl=en
You can't dismiss evolution, cosmology and other origins sciences
without eliminating the rest of science because they all use the same
scientific method.
Just as you can't dismiss religion, faith and Spiritual values,
Look at what happened to the atheist states which tried;
60,000,000 terrorised, tortured and murdered in just 7 decades in
the Union of Savage Slaughter and repression(USSR) Mao's Cultural
Devolution and Great Leap Backward and Pol Pot's Cambodian
genocide.
Remember, 100% of atheist states have been totalitarian tyrannies,
so atheists are on thin ice citing examples of theist tyranny, when
they are ignoring the vast majority of progressive theist states,
including the modern, democratic, rights-based MAJORITY RELIGIOUS
societies like Australia and the USA, which the ATHEISTS THEMSELVES
choose to live in.. rather than atheist Nth Korea!
So this argument is bogus and based on SELECTIVE examples and gross
ignorance of history;
Look what happened to the Islamic world when they replaced science
with religious ignorance almost a thousand years ago. It entered its
own religious dark ages from which it still hasn't emerged.
The European dark age lasted about 1200 years, from Rome's adoption of
Christianity to the enlightenment. My own feeling is that the church
was too busy trying to go after heretical sects to go after people
investigating how the world works. Even though they still managed to
execute those with a high profile, many kept their heads down and
managed to survive to continue their work. In England Henry VII
removing the church's econonomic and political power was also a major
contribution to this.
It seems plausible, because like all human and natural phenomena,
Spiritual teachings do go through natural cycles of birth, growth,
and decline, seasons.
But in the modern era historian have noted the global synergies which
earlier, tribal and nationalist viewpoints obscured.
We are all familiar with Christianity's debt to Judaism,
It is a PROGRESSIVE REVELATION.
Judaism was awaiting a Messiah, but missed his coming, and it was
the Christians who carried the God of Abraham and Moses into the West,
not their Jewish pre-decessors.
Initially Christianity spread because it was USEFUL (Societies adopt
useful new ideas, in science, technology, maths, music AND religioun,
because NEW perspectives and Understandings are always forming
even if the underlying scientific (or Religious) REALITY remains
unchanged, but only partially UNDERSTOOD) But in early human history,
forms of social and political organisation made progress SLOW
and the Feudal forms of social organisation steadily seeped into and
corrupted the Church, until it BECAME a POLITICAL not Spiritual entiy,
The Holy Roman Empire.
What is missed in the unbalanced atheist analysis is critical-
* There was no alternative, Atheism contributed nothing, All societies
were based on religion, all the Great and enduring CIVILIZATIONS
WERE founded on Spiritual Values.
So it's like blaming parents for being conservative, when no one
else couls, or would do the job, half as well.
* The Dark ages in Europe is only part of the story, Islamic
Civilisation was flowering with enormous advances in Science,
Mathematics, Medicine.
RELIGION REMAINED THE DRIVING FORCE FOR PROGRESS, once to take the
global perspective and abandon the SELECTIVE EXAMPLE fallacy of
the atheists! B^]
Where was atheism while Islam was developing Hospitals and
Surgical instruments, street lighting and Algebra?
Nowhere to be seen
And Islam injected this new ZeitGeist, all of ist inspirational
new discoveries (Plus the works of Classical Greece) into Europe
via Andalusia, in what is now modern Spain.
In Music the Lute (El Oud) began the Troubadour tradition, the
foundation of Western Music. In mathematics the development of
Markets could not have flourished using Roman numerals, it required
ARABIC NUMERALS (Actually,transmitted from the Hindu Civilisation
;-)
Harvey's work on the bloodstream is merely a transcription
of an Arab text, the Hospice, Surgical Instruments, even philosophy
and critical thought were all re-energised by the brilliant Islamic
Civilisation..
and we are all aware of what the Christian west did with it,
the Protestant Scots who were the foundation of Industrial
Revolution, All the Great theist scientist from Galileao to Newton
(and yes we know that Galileo was persecuted, get over it ;-)
And the one point I agree with Chris lee, yes, Islam did
over time, enter it's own Dark Age, as all human organisations
can when they ossify, especially as their nations fell under
political corruption, Imperialism and Colonisation.
But here is the critical point, in each case those great world
religions inspired and sustained great civilisations, through the
most difficult stages of human social, political, economic and
SPIRITUAL evolution.. and the current state of the Art; free,
democratic, MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies were those religious
majorities CHOOSE and INSTALL separation of Church and State
with SECULAR government, but guaranteing Freedom of Religion,
is the achievement of that long struggle..
.. and atheism contributed BUGGER ALL, because despite
a few exceptional individuals (Voltaire, Shaw..) EVERY
atheist state was a totalitarian shithole!! 8^o
Put simply, THERE WERE NO GREAT AND ENDURING ATHEIST
CIVILISATIONS which might have made a few mistakes
along the way as the religious ones did.
This is the Balance. This is the Balance. This is the Balance.
Atheists need to develop a balanced perspective, if they
are to be taken seriously and, working with the religions,
make a positive contribution to the evolution of our Global
Civilisation.
# That past scientists happened to have religious beliefs is due to the
society they were brought up in then.
So it's true that Religion is no impediment to Science, and in fact
it produced all those great scientists throughout History..
"..science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with
the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling,
however, springs from the sphere of Religion... science without religion
is lame, religion without science is blind."
- Albert Einstein "Ideas and Opinions" 1954
No, it is clear that Science emerged despite the murk of religious
dogma. Religion continues to claim authority over truth even though it
has repeatedly been proven wrong.
Golly, who to believe, Einstein and the FACT that most of the
worlds great scientists were religious or another atheist bigot
who offers NOTHING but his baseless opinion!? B^D

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAAA
The Biblical story of creation is in
absolute conflict with the modern scientific viewpoint.
No, even though it is NOT a scientific document, and atheists of
fundies who pretend it is are idiots, "Let there be Light" is a pretty
good approximation of the Big Bang Theory, the current scientific
explanation for the creation of the Universe, which is also the product
of a RELIGIOUS thinker,

"Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître ..a Belgian
Roman Catholic priest, honorary prelate, professor of physics
and astronomer at the Catholic University of Leuven. "

The VERY science which atheists PRETEND is theirs to claim, was
produced by Rational THEISTS! B^D

There is NO ignorance and bigotry in human history as total as that
practised by atheist states in the so-called 'modern'(sic) era!

Sure Galileo was browbeaten by an ignorant and corrupted church
but MILLIONS of children were FORCIBLY INDOCTRINATED by Atheist
regimes, and their parents in Red Terror Gulags and Maoist 're-
education camps.

If you want to see SYSTEMATIC IRRATIONALITY, violent bigotry and
profoundly un-scientific violent bigotry IN THE MODERN ERA, then
go to any of the vile atheist tyrannies which killed over 60,000,000
people... oh wait, you will have difficulty.. unlike Religion which
has inspired and sustained every GREAT and ENDURING CIVILISATION, all
the atheist shitholes destroyed themselves, except Nth Korea
which is still crumbling but not quite destroyed, yet!

How come atheist hypocrites choose to live in
majority religious societies, rather than the
last remaining ATHEIST PARADISE?? {snicker B^}
Post by Morton Lucifer
The Greatness of God is something we cannot understand even though we
are aware of it
- Rene Descarte 1596-1650 mathematician and philosopher
The glory and greatness of the Almighty God are marvellously
discerned
in all His works and divinely read in the open book of heaven
- Galileo Galilei 1564-1642
I see everywhere the inevitable expression of the infinite in the world
- Louis Pasteur 1822-95
As a blind man has no idea of colours, so have we
no idea of themanner by which the All-Wise
God perceives and understands all things.
- Sir Isaac Newton 1642-1727
The scientific picture of the real world around me is very
deficient...Science cannot tell us why music delights us, of why and how
an old song can move us to tears.... Science is reticent too when it is
a question of the great Unity... of which we all somehow form a part, to
which we belong. The most popular name for it in our time is God.
- Erwin Schroedinger 1933 Nobel prize in Physics
"My view of the World" 1918
There can never be any real opposition between religion and science.
Every serious and reflective person realizes, I think, that the
religious elements in his nature must be recognized and cultivated if
all the powers of the human soul are to act together in perfect balance
and harmony.
- Max Planck winner of the 1918 Nobel prize in Physics
"Where is Science Going" 1918
"Something unknown is doing we don't know what"
-Sir Arthur Eddington
Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can
soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not
possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the
wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of
superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone
he would make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of
materialism.
- 'Abdu'l - Baha "Paris Talks" 1911
Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of
the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as
well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces
worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the
facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost
beyond question." (2)
George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in
the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the
complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use
the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological
status of the word." (3)
Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it
quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be
some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the
explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something
instead of nothing." (6)
John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards,
a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the
Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could
never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances
indicate the universe was created for man to live in." (7)
George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the
thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather,
Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without
intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence
of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially
crafted the cosmos for our benefit?" (8)
Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or
Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present
state of scientific theory." (9)
Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique
event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very
delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to
permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say
'supernatural') plan." (10)
Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe
has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance." (11)
Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty
of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very
tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am
sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it." (12)
Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by
our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the
divine." (13)
Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has
lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad
dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to
conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he
is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for
centuries." (14)
Stephen Hawking (British astrophysicist): "Then we shall… be able to
take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and
the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it would be the
ultimate triumph of human reason - for then we would know the mind of
God." (15)
Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my
career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced
atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be
writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-
Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are
straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand
them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable
logic of my own special branch of physics." (16) Note: Tipler since
has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, The
Physics Of Christianity.
Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): "We know that nature is
described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created
it."(17)
Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the
existence of God – the design argument of Paley – updated and
refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie
evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that
requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one....
Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the
teleological or design argument." (18)
Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe,
in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but
our picture is incomplete without Him [God]." (19)
Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no
question but that a God will always be needed." (20)
Drs. Zehavi, and Dekel (cosmologists): "This type of universe,
however, seems to require a degree of fine tuning of the initial
conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'." (21)
Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981
Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the
marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how.
The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God
in the universe and in my own life." (22)
Henry "Fritz" Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and
director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the
University of Georgia): "The significance and joy in my science comes
in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to
myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little
corner of God's plan." (23)
Wernher von Braun (Pioneer rocket engineer) "I find it as difficult to
understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a
superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to
comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science." (24)
Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in
Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I
can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100
billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed
and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would
contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that
the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out
of an uncountably large number of universes, may not apply only to
that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may
extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be
entirely unique." (25)
"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a
little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the
ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that
someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It
does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the
child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books - a
mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly
suspects." - Albert Einstein
"The statistical probability that organic structures and the most
precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be
generated by accident, is zero."- Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist)
Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry
I. Prigogine, N. Gregair, A. Babbyabtz, Physics Today 25, pp. 23-28
"The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a
knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge,
and would be total chaos if any of the natural 'constants' were off
even slightly. You see," Davies adds, "even if you dismiss man as a
chance happening, the fact remains that the universe seems
unreasonably suited to the existence of life -- almost contrived --
you might say a 'put-up job'."- Dr. Paul Davies
(noted author and Professor of Theoretical Physics at Adelaide
University)
Just a few believers who exceeded the intellectual output of this
ignorant atheist fuckwit and his cronies in alt.atheism;
Sir Francis Bacon - established the scientific method of inquiry based
on experimentation and inductive reasoning.
Nicolaus Copernicus Catholic canon who introduced a heliocentric world view.
William Turner the "father of English botany"
John Napier Scottish mathematician known for inventing logarithms,
Napier's bones, and being the popularizer of the use of decimals.
Johannes Kepler His model of the cosmos based on nesting Platonic solids
was explicitly driven by religious ideas; his later and most famous
scientific contribution, the Kepler's laws of planetary motion, was
based on empirical data that he obtained from Tycho Brahe's meticulous
astronomical observations,
Galileo Galilei
René Descartes one of the key thinkers of the Scientific Revolution in
the Western World. honoured by having the Cartesian coordinate system
used in plane geometry and algebra named after him. He did important
work on invariants and geometry. His Meditations on First Philosophy
partially concerns theology and he was devoted to reconciling his ideas
with the dogmas of Catholic Faith to which he was loyal.
Blaise Pascal well-known for Pascal's law (physics), Pascal's theorem
(math), and Pascal's Wager (theology).
Nicolas Steno a pioneer in both anatomy and geology
Robert Boyle Scientist and theologian who argued that the study of
science could improve glorification of God.
John Wallis As a mathematician he wrote Arithmetica Infinitorumis,
introduced the term Continued fraction, worked on cryptography, helped
develop calculus, and is further known for the Wallis product.
Gottfried Leibniz A polymath who worked on determinants, a calculating
machine
Isaac Newton (He is regarded as one of the greatest scientists and
mathematicians in history.
Thomas Bayes Bayes' theorem. Fellow of the Royal Society
Firmin Abauzit A physicist and theologian.
Carolus Linnaeus father of modern taxonomy, contributions to ecology.
Leonhard Euler mathematician and physicist,
Maria Gaetana Agnesi mathematician
Isaac Milner Lucasian Professor of Mathematics
Michael Faraday
Charles Babbage
Gregor Mendel "father of modern genetics"
Asa Gray - Gray's Manual remains a pivotal work in botany.
Louis Pasteur Inventor of the pasteurization method, a french chemist
and microbiologist. He also solved the mysteries of rabies, anthrax,
chicken cholera, and silkworm diseases, and contributed to the
development of the first vaccines.
Lord Kelvin Thermodynamics. winner of the Copley Medal and the Royal Medal,
Pierre Duhem Thermodynamic potentials
Dmitri Egorov mathematician - differential geometry
John Ambrose Flemingthe Right-hand rule and work on vacuum tubes,
Fleming valve. the Hughes Medal.
Max Planck founder of Quantum mechanics (1918 Nobel Prize in Physics
Edward Arthur Milne astrophysicist and mathematician proposed the Milne
model and had a Moon crater named for him. Gold Medal of the Royal
Astronomical Society,
Arthur Compton Nobel Prize in Physics.
Georges Lemaître proposed the Big Bang theory. Roman Catholic priest
Sir Robert Boyd pioneer in British space science
von Weizsäcker nuclear physicist Bethe-Weizsäcker formula.
Charles Hard Townes 1964 Nobel Prize in Physics 1966 wrote The
Convergence of Science and Religion.
Freeman Dyson the Lorentz Medal, the Max Planck Medal, and the Lewis
Thomas Prize.
John T. Houghtonco-chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate
Change gold medal from the Royal Astronomical Society.
Micha? Heller mathematical physicist relativistic physics and
Noncommutative geometry.
Eric PriestSolar Magnetohydrodynamics , won the George Ellery Hale Prize
Francis Collins director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute.
John D. Barrow English cosmologist implications of the Anthropic principle.
Denis Alexander Director of the Faraday Institute and author of
Rebuilding the Matrix - Science and Faith in the 21st Century.
Christopher IshamTheoretical physicist who developed HPO formalism.
Martin NowakEvolutionary biologist and mathematician best known for
evolutionary dynamics.
And that's just a partial list of Western scientists who were believers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists
raven1
2009-08-12 15:08:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 03:14:34 GMT, Morton Lucifer <"95
Theses"@atheist-reformation.org> wrote:

Changing nyms to avoid killfiles again, Failednuts? How pathetic.

<plonk>
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